Baptism

[Jonathan Hodgson]

Jesus would be the only authority about baptism, wouldn't you say.
He, by being baptized, set the example for us to follow.
In Matt 28:19-20, Christ commanded baptism. it was his final commission for preaching the Gospel of this age.
Acts 10;46-48 shows the apostles commanding baptism.
water baptism is a required condition to receiving the Holy Spirit-faith and repentance are prerequisites before baptism- acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6
" Repent, and be baptized " and then " you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Although God on very rare occasions could make an exception like the thief on the cross because of obvious circumstances. But the rule, the command for those that are able is baptism by water.
baptism on its own does not save us-it is commanded for the remission of sins, even though it is only symbolic.
baptism is an essential part of the course of conversion and salvation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have not said that Jesus and the early apostles did not command baptism. They did. We absolutely should be baptised in the same way that we should help the needy and evangelise and many more things. They are all part of being obedient and all very important. A saved Christian should and will do all these things. "Good trees produce good fruits". (I cannot remember where this is but am happy to find it in the morning). What I am saying is that these things do not come before salvation through faith. They come as a result of salvation through faith. As for the holy spirit coming after baptism I suggest you read Acts 10:44-48 which clearly shows the Holy spirit falling on the people before baptism. This is not the only example. Baptism of the holy spirit is something different and will elaborate in a later comment.

44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

(Acts 10:44-48 ESV)

 

[Kirsten]

To be clearer on this, the sequence has been shown as faith or belief, repentance, baptism, and then the laying on of hands-that gets you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until the laying of hands after the baptism. Baptism on its own is not enough to save you.
The symbolic burial of our old ways and the resurrected newness of life we emerge into.
Baptism is the symbolic door to righteousness. You must go through that door if you are going to enter into eternal life-there is no other way.

As I stated earlier, you needn't concern yourself. Christians, after they are born again and are transferred from death to life in Christ through faith, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, are always baptized. The problem you have is that you seem to profess that baptism is a door one is able to go through even when they have no idea what is happening and have no faith and do not know God, ie. infant baptism. Water baptism is just a bath for someone who does not believe. If you do believe, you are already justified and already saved, ie. given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance.

 

[Job8]

To be clearer on this, the sequence has been shown as faith or belief, repentance, baptism, and then the laying on of hands-that gets you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until the laying of hands after the baptism. Baptism on its own is not enough to save you.

If you will kindy turn to Acts 10:44-48, you will not that the laying on of hands IS NOT a requirement to receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. If you will then turn to Acts 2:38-41, you will find that it would have been impossible to lay hands on about 3,000 saved individuals, and it is not even mentioned there. Thirdly, since the apostles are long gone, the laying on of their hands is not even possible. Today all those who repent and believe receive the gift of the Holy Spirit immediately and are born again (Tit 3:4-7).

 

[Hawkiz]

No, the Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that. (Far from it, in fact.)

These are strange times indeed when Albion has to step up and defend Catholic teaching! .
Albion correctly states the Catholic position on baptism. It is not now nor has it ever been a total 'get out of Hell free card'.

Baptism does not save anyone. For a non-believer, baptism is meaningless. For a believer, it is expressing what is already believed. If baptism saved people, we could just baptize everyone and everyone would be saved. The manner of baptism is irrelevant as it is simply and expression of dying with Christ and rising with him in a new life.

Scripture to back up your claims here? I will provide some (not an entire list) that can clearly show that your claim that 'baptism does not save anyone' is not supported by Scripture:

John 3:3-5; 22; John 4:1. Jesus says: 'truly, truly, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God.' What is salvation if not entering into the Kingdom? And the context of the verse is clearly baptism, for after teaching on this, Jesus and the disciples did what? They went out and baptized.

Acts 2:38. 'Repent and be baptized'. Why? The verse goes on to tell us exactly why: for the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit.
To say that baptism is meaningless do not fit with Scripture. Unless you hold that forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit are also meaningless? (I doubt that you believe that).

Romans 6:3-4. We see that something unites us with Christ...what is it? It is baptism. I will happily contend that unity with Christ is not symbolic, but very, very real.

Acts 22:16. St. Paul, having been converted by Christ Himself, still must be baptized. The language is a command not a recommendation. Why? Baptism will wash away his sins!

1 Cor. 6:11. 'You were washed (as in baptized) so as to be both justified and sanctified.' Again, we see that baptism actually accomplishes something. IT provides us with something, it does not merely symbolize something, it truly does what Jesus said it would: it cleanses us from sins.

Col. 2:11-14. Baptism replaces circumcision as the mark of the New Covenant. Baptism joins us with Christ's death and Resurection.

Titus 3:3-7. Christ SAVES us through the washing of rebirth. (Look back to Christ's teaching in John about baptism). And renewal by the Holy Spirit, which is poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, (why?) so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 3:18-21. The waters of baptism now do what? They save.

This is a good jumping off point for us to continue the discussion. This is not the end of my arguments in favor of baptism, but I will allow for your responses before continuing onward. If you could please:
Provide any verses that speak of baptism as being meaningless?
Provide any Scripture that shows that justification and sanctification are merely symbolic.
Same for forgiveness of sins. If, as Scripture says, baptism provides us with a means to receive God's Grace (who else can wash away our sins?), can you provide any Scripture that says that forgiveness of sins is symbolic?
Feel free to explain away the verses I have provided thus far.

We will hit on what is appropriate (submersion vs dipping) and infant baptism later. Let's tackle one question at a time.

Peace in Christ

 

[Albion]

These are strange times indeed when Albion has to step up and defend Catholic teaching! .
Albion correctly states the Catholic position on baptism. It is not now nor has it ever been a total 'get out of Hell free card'.

Actually, I have defended or corrected mistaken statements about Catholic teaching a number of times before. You're merely the first or second member who's been willing to say it. Thanks.

 

[Hawkiz]

Actually, I have defended or corrected mistaken statements about Catholic teaching a number of times before. You're merely the first or second member who's been willing to say it. Thanks.

I know you have! I respect that you always stand ready to speak the Truth; even if we occasionally disagree about doctrine and dogma. I compliment you for pushing me to understand the 'Why?' in the way our Faith is taught. Better communication=better understanding. It is only through understanding one another that we can find ways to unite around Christ!

Peace in Him brother Albion

 

[jacobs well]

I think you have misunderstood me. I have not said that Jesus and the early apostles did not command baptism. They did. We absolutely should be baptised in the same way that we should help the needy and evangelise and many more things. They are all part of being obedient and all very important. A saved Christian should and will do all these things. "Good trees produce good fruits". (I cannot remember where this is but am happy to find it in the morning). What I am saying is that these things do not come before salvation through faith. They come as a result of salvation through faith. As for the holy spirit coming after baptism I suggest you read Acts 10:44-48 which clearly shows the Holy spirit falling on the people before baptism. This is not the only example. Baptism of the holy spirit is something different and will elaborate in a later comment.
(Acts 10:44-48 ESV)

What you see in Acts 10 is called baptism by the Holy Spirit-this occurred on the day of Pentecost when the NT Church began. It was inaugurated by Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and did not require water or laying on of hands.
Further, in Acts, chapter 19:1-6 you see the encounter with Paul and some disciples in Ephesus where these people were
baptized by John but had not heard of the Holy Ghost. Paul-in verse 6-laid his hands on them and then the Holy Spirit came on them.
You will see this again in Acts 8:15-18 showing the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is on a different level than fruits.
even after faith, repentance, baptism, and the laying on of hands we are not saved yet. That remains a future event.
We are begotten by the Spirit and only after living a Christian life of obedience and faith then we will be transformed into a child of God (born again) after our physical death at the time of the second coming of Christ.

 

[Kirsten]

Scripture to back up your claims here? I will provide some (not an entire list) that can clearly show that your claim that 'baptism does not save anyone' is not supported by Scripture:

John 3:3-5; 22; John 4:1. Jesus says: 'truly, truly, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God.' What is salvation if not entering into the Kingdom? And the context of the verse is clearly baptism, for after teaching on this, Jesus and the disciples did what? They went out and baptized.

This passage teaches that one must die in Christ and rise with Him again, the meaning of baptism and its symbolism and filled with the Holy Spirit. This passage teaches that if you have not died with Christ and risen with Him into a new life and are born again by the Spirit of God, made alive to God in Christ, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Notice in Romans 6 below that our baptism represents us dying into Christ's death and being raised with Him in a new life. This represents what actually happens when the Spirit of God indwells a person, making them alive to God in Christ. This happens upon belief as clearly demonstrated in the book of Acts.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Acts 2:38. 'Repent and be baptized'. Why? The verse goes on to tell us exactly why: for the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit.
To say that baptism is meaningless do not fit with Scripture. Unless you hold that forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit are also meaningless? (I doubt that you believe that).

REPENT and be baptized. Forgiveness of sin ONLY comes with repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY comes with repentance. An infant is unable to repent and therefore, baptizing and infant has no affect. A person MUST repent FIRST.

Romans 6:3-4. We see that something unites us with Christ...what is it? It is baptism. I will happily contend that unity with Christ is not symbolic, but very, very real.

See above

Acts 22:16. St. Paul, having been converted by Christ Himself, still must be baptized. The language is a command not a recommendation. Why? Baptism will wash away his sins!

Paul had not yet been converted at this point. Again, baptism represents us dying with Christ and being raised into a new life. This has already been discussed.

1 Cor. 6:11. 'You were washed (as in baptized) so as to be both justified and sanctified.' Again, we see that baptism actually accomplishes something. IT provides us with something, it does not merely symbolize something, it truly does what Jesus said it would: it cleanses us from sins.

This 'washing' is not at all referring to baptism. It is referring to being washed in the blood of Jesus. That is what justifies us.

Col. 2:11-14. Baptism replaces circumcision as the mark of the New Covenant. Baptism joins us with Christ's death and Resurection.

The point being that circumcision does not justify anyone. Dying with Christ and being raised again with Him to a new life and being filled with the Holy Spirit, does.

Titus 3:3-7. Christ SAVES us through the washing of rebirth. (Look back to Christ's teaching in John about baptism). And renewal by the Holy Spirit, which is poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, (why?) so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having hope of eternal life.

The rebirth is through through the washing in the blood of Jesus and being born again by the Spirit of God.

1 Peter 3:18-21. The waters of baptism now do what? They save.

Absolutely not. If that were so, you could baptize anyone, as I've stated before, and they would be saved regardless of what they believed. You must repent and be born again to be saved. All Christians, after repentance, are baptized, symbolizing their death and rebirth in Christ.

This is a good jumping off point for us to continue the discussion. This is not the end of my arguments in favor of baptism

No Christians are not in favor of baptism. All Christians are baptized after they repent.

 

[Hawkiz]

This passage teaches that one must die in Christ and rise with Him again, the meaning of baptism and its symbolism and filled with the Holy Spirit. This passage teaches that if you have not died with Christ and risen with Him into a new life and are born again by the Spirit of God, made alive to God in Christ, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Notice in Romans 6 below that our baptism represents Except that the passage doesn't say that it 'represents', it says that we are baptized into His death. us dying into Christ's death and being raised with Him in a new life. This represents Again, the word 'represents' is found nowhere in this text. You are adding this word. what actually happens when the Spirit of God indwells a person Yes, this actually happens in Baptism, not only a symbol or representation, making them alive to God in Christ. This happens upon belief as clearly demonstrated in the book of Acts.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


I have no quarrel with what the text says. Baptism actually accomplishes what The Word says.


REPENT and be baptized. Forgiveness of sin ONLY comes with repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY comes with repentance. An infant is unable to repent and therefore, baptizing and infant has no affect. A person MUST repent FIRST.

I'm not convinced we are ready to move on to infant baptisms yet, but if you insist, I will address this in its own post.


See above



Paul had not yet been converted at this point. Again, baptism represents us dying with Christ and being raised into a new life. This has already been discussed.

So wait, I'm confused...you are saying that Paul was baptized PRIOR to his conversion? Just one sentence before, you said this isn't possible?

This 'washing' is not at all referring to baptism. It is referring to being washed in the blood of Jesus. That is what justifies us.

Considering that St. Paul makes a direct reference to the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in us, just as he spoke of in Romans, where the Holy Spirit comes to us via baptism, you appear to be reaching here.

The point being that circumcision does not justify anyone. Dying with Christ and being raised again with Him to a new life and being filled with the Holy Spirit, does.

Fair enough. So how does this happen? Through baptism. Thus, again, baptism actually accomplishes in a very real way, what The Word says it will accomplish. Not only in symbol.

The rebirth is through through the washing in the blood of Jesus and being born again by the Spirit of God.

I am fine with your statement here...except that as you correctly pointed out, Romans tells us that this happens how? Through baptism.

Absolutely not. If that were so, you could baptize anyone, as I've stated before, and they would be saved regardless of what they believed. You must repent and be born again to be saved. All Christians, after repentance, are baptized, symbolizing their death and rebirth in Christ.

We can agree that the water alone accomplishes nothing...and we can agree that it is an outward sign of a real Spiritual change. But the words in this passage contradict your statement of 'absolutely not'. 1 Peter 3:21. 'And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also (referring back to Noah from previous verse)- not as removal of dirt from the body (i.e. It is not 'just a bath') but the response of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into Heaven and is seated at God's right hand- with angels, authority and powers in submission to Him.'
'Baptism now saves you'. The Word speaks for Itself. Baptism is not merely symbolic, but rather, thanks to the power of Christ' Resurrection, baptism is salvific.


No Christians are not in favor of baptism. All Christians are baptized after they repent.

 

[Kirsten]

You'll have to clean that up before I can respond. You have quotes in quotes.

 

[Hawkiz]

To Kirsten,

You seemed willing to move on to infant baptism, and I promised to oblige.

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of 8 day old babies as the way of entering the Old Testament...Col. 2:11-12 - we see that baptism is the new circumcision for all people of the New Testament. Baptism is therefor applied to infants as well as adults. God clearly did not make the New Testament more narrow than the Old (it is open to ALL, not just the Jewish people's).
Matthew 18:2-5. Jesus says that unless we become like children, we cannot enter Heaven. Why would we exclude those whom we are to emulate according to Christ?
Matthew 19:14. The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to children. There is no age minimum to enter Heaven. There is no age limit to be baptized.

There is nothing in Scripture speaking of a 'believers only' baptism.

Acts 2:38-39. Peter says to the multitude, 'repent and be baptized...' You claim that this proves repentance must come first. I don't usually like to defer to the Greek, since I don't speak it, but the Greek here literally says: 'if you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized'. The actual Greek is:' Metanoesate Kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.' This would run quite contrary to your stated position and demonstrate that babies are actually baptized on their parents' faith. This is further confirmed in verse 39. 'Those far off' refers to family members who were not physically standing in Peter's presence. This is not a solely 'Catholic' position. Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican and Eastern Orthodox alike have studied this verse and concluded that 'those far off' includes children. Might doesn't make right, but 2,000 years of study and differing groups have all reached the same conclusion on this verse...and they don't side with you.
We see this works even when we include Paul in the mix. In Acts 16:15, Paul baptized the entire household based one the faith of only one person, Lydia. Same with the jailer from verse 33 of the same chapter. There is no limitation for 'age of reason' to have been achieved.

matthew 9:2; Mark 2:3-5. The faith of those who brought the paralytic is said to be what cured his sins. This is a perfect example of how the faith of one person can affect the soul of another. Just like how infant baptism could affect the faith of the infant...
Same with the centurion's servant.
1 Cor. 7:14. Paul says to us that children are sanctified by God through the belief of even only one parent.

And finally, in Romans, Paul tells us that sin came through Adam, and death through sin. A babies soul is just as much affected by this as an adults. (Romans 5).

Using only Scripture, we see that there is nowhere to be found an exclusion of infants from the New Testament. And that there are examples in The Word where they are included. Please prayerfully review The Word.
The Catholic Church would not and does not deny that repentance and confession of faith should come from an adult who wishes to be baptized, but also stands firmly in The Word by concluding that infant baptism is not only acceptable, but preferred. Why wouldn't we bring someone to Christ as early as possible?

Peace in Christ Kirsten.

 

[jacobs well]

If you will kindy turn to Acts 10:44-48, you will not that the laying on of hands IS NOT a requirement to receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. If you will then turn to Acts 2:38-41, you will find that it would have been impossible to lay hands on about 3,000 saved individuals, and it is not even mentioned there. Thirdly, since the apostles are long gone, the laying on of their hands is not even possible. Today all those who repent and believe receive the gift of the Holy Spirit immediately and are born again (Tit 3:4-7).

See my post #27, true ministers of God have the responsibility today to the laying on of hands as a requirement to receive the Holy Spirit.

As I stated earlier, you needn't concern yourself. Christians, after they are born again and are transferred from death to life in Christ through faith, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, are always baptized. The problem you have is that you seem to profess that baptism is a door one is able to go through even when they have no idea what is happening and have no faith and do not know God, ie. infant baptism. Water baptism is just a bath for someone who does not believe. If you do believe, you are already justified and already saved, ie. given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance.

As I stated earlier, you needn't concern yourself. Christians, after they are born again and are transferred from death to life in Christ through faith, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, are always baptized. The problem you have is that you seem to profess that baptism is a door one is able to go through even when they have no idea what is happening and have no faith and do not know God, ie. infant baptism. Water baptism is just a bath for someone who does not believe. If you do believe, you are already justified and already saved, ie. given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance.

As I stated earlier, you needn't concern yourself. Christians, after they are born again and are transferred from death to life in Christ through faith, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, are always baptized. The problem you have is that you seem to profess that baptism is a door one is able to go through even when they have no idea what is happening and have no faith and do not know God, ie. infant baptism. Water baptism is just a bath for someone who does not believe. If you do believe, you are already justified and already saved, ie. given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance.

This passage teaches that one must die in Christ and rise with Him again, the meaning of baptism and its symbolism and filled with the Holy Spirit. This passage teaches that if you have not died with Christ and risen with Him into a new life and are born again by the Spirit of God, made alive to God in Christ, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Notice in Romans 6 below that our baptism represents us dying into Christ's death and being raised with Him in a new life. This represents what actually happens when the Spirit of God indwells a person, making them alive to God in Christ. This happens upon belief as clearly demonstrated in the book of Acts.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.





REPENT and be baptized. Forgiveness of sin ONLY comes with repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY comes with repentance. An infant is unable to repent and therefore, baptizing and infant has no affect. A person MUST repent FIRST.




See above



Paul had not yet been converted at this point. Again, baptism represents us dying with Christ and being raised into a new life. This has already been discussed.



This 'washing' is not at all referring to baptism. It is referring to being washed in the blood of Jesus. That is what justifies us.



The point being that circumcision does not justify anyone. Dying with Christ and being raised again with Him to a new life and being filled with the Holy Spirit, does.



The rebirth is through through the washing in the blood of Jesus and being born again by the Spirit of God.



Absolutely not. If that were so, you could baptize anyone, as I've stated before, and they would be saved regardless of what they believed. You must repent and be born again to be saved. All Christians, after repentance, are baptized, symbolizing their death and rebirth in Christ.



No Christians are not in favor of baptism. All Christians are baptized after they repent.

This passage teaches that one must die in Christ and rise with Him again, the meaning of baptism and its symbolism and filled with the Holy Spirit. This passage teaches that if you have not died with Christ and risen with Him into a new life and are born again by the Spirit of God, made alive to God in Christ, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Notice in Romans 6 below that our baptism represents us dying into Christ's death and being raised with Him in a new life. This represents what actually happens when the Spirit of God indwells a person, making them alive to God in Christ. This happens upon belief as clearly demonstrated in the book of Acts.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.





REPENT and be baptized. Forgiveness of sin ONLY comes with repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY comes with repentance. An infant is unable to repent and therefore, baptizing and infant has no affect. A person MUST repent FIRST.




See above



Paul had not yet been converted at this point. Again, baptism represents us dying with Christ and being raised into a new life. This has already been discussed.



This 'washing' is not at all referring to baptism. It is referring to being washed in the blood of Jesus. That is what justifies us.



The point being that circumcision does not justify anyone. Dying with Christ and being raised again with Him to a new life and being filled with the Holy Spirit, does.



The rebirth is through through the washing in the blood of Jesus and being born again by the Spirit of God.



Absolutely not. If that were so, you could baptize anyone, as I've stated before, and they would be saved regardless of what they believed. You must repent and be born again to be saved. All Christians, after repentance, are baptized, symbolizing their death and rebirth in Christ.



No Christians are not in favor of baptism. All Christians are baptized after they repent.

This passage teaches that one must die in Christ and rise with Him again, the meaning of baptism and its symbolism and filled with the Holy Spirit. This passage teaches that if you have not died with Christ and risen with Him into a new life and are born again by the Spirit of God, made alive to God in Christ, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Notice in Romans 6 below that our baptism represents us dying into Christ's death and being raised with Him in a new life. This represents what actually happens when the Spirit of God indwells a person, making them alive to God in Christ. This happens upon belief as clearly demonstrated in the book of Acts.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.





REPENT and be baptized. Forgiveness of sin ONLY comes with repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY comes with repentance. An infant is unable to repent and therefore, baptizing and infant has no affect. A person MUST repent FIRST.




See above



Paul had not yet been converted at this point. Again, baptism represents us dying with Christ and being raised into a new life. This has already been discussed.



This 'washing' is not at all referring to baptism. It is referring to being washed in the blood of Jesus. That is what justifies us.



The point being that circumcision does not justify anyone. Dying with Christ and being raised again with Him to a new life and being filled with the Holy Spirit, does.



The rebirth is through through the washing in the blood of Jesus and being born again by the Spirit of God.



Absolutely not. If that were so, you could baptize anyone, as I've stated before, and they would be saved regardless of what they believed. You must repent and be born again to be saved. All Christians, after repentance, are baptized, symbolizing their death and rebirth in Christ.



No Christians are not in favor of baptism. All Christians are baptized after they


Sorry this reply seems to be integrated with a part of another one but here is a new reply regarding
"born again" being associated with baptism. That which is born of the flesh is speaking of our physical birth as a newborn baby but being born of the spirit is not referring to the baptism ritual, rather being born of the spirit refers to our resurrection from physical death and entering the Kingdom of God. Remember flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God-and after baptism we are still human beings.
After the laying of hands, which is the only way we receive the power of the Holy Spirit, we are then begotten of the Spirit of God and begin our new life, a " new creature " in Christ. We are not born yet.
We then are on a lifelong path of overcoming, faith, trials and tests, obedience and patience-years of allowing our heavenly Father through the power of His Holy Spirit to rule our lives-then, only after successfully fulfilling all that, we will be saved-saved from eternal death.
Having the spirit of God in us during our begotten period is part of the process of salvation.

I also believe infant baptism does not meet the criterion for baptism in the bible..

Baptism is an outward sign of the beginning of our commitment to Christ.
I still believe the waters of baptism symbolize our being clean inwardly through the Holy Spirit.
Christ's sacrifice on the cross has paid for or washed away our past sins. Baptism represents the beginning of the real conversion process, not the end.

i always understood justification means being declared free from guilt and made righteous.
And we remain righteous by obedience to God's laws.

 

[jacobs well]

Sorry I have duplicated some posts-click to expand on the last one

 

[NJA]

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?

"they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:37-38)

So, yes but all 3 elements must be fulfilled.

And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?

baptizo: make whelmed (that is, fully wet)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Romans 6:3-4)

Who can qualify to be baptized?
What does the Bible have to say about all this?

Burying "the flesh" shows that you should believe that you need to receive and live by the Holy Spirit.
John's disciples in Acts 19:1-6 didn't understand this so they were re-baptised.

 

[bcbsr]

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?
And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?
Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?

If water baptism is necessary for a person to be saved, that's salvation by works, is it not? Same idea as making salvation contingent upon circumcision. And just as the church was divided in the first Century between the Judaizers and those who followed Paul's gospel, so also throughout post-Biblical Christianity the visible church has been divided between those of a "Sacramental" salvation by works theology (such as Catholicism, but also among non-Catholic sects), and those who believe faith alone is the requirement for salvation.

Rom 4:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

 

[NJA]

If water baptism is necessary for a person to be saved, that's salvation by works, is it not?

Baptism is laying down your life, allowing someone else to immerse you, it ios acknowledging that nothing you can do can bring you into right standing with God ... spiritually you are a dead corpse, "dead in sin".

Befare any "gospel" then tells you that you received salvation by "accepting jesus into your heart", haking a confession or "praying a sinners prayer" ... these and others like them are are works that leave you "in the flesh", trying to be something you ar enot.

You enter into God's working, God's power when you receive His Spirit, as detailed in Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46 (John 3:8).
Then you learn to waljk in that new life. Water baptism shows and reminds you that it is nothing of you.

The simple fact is that's what Jesus and all teh disciples and all they were sent to abided by. I advise not to bother arguing!

 

[jacobs well]

To Kirsten,

You seemed willing to move on to infant baptism, and I promised to oblige.

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of 8 day old babies as the way of entering the Old Testament...Col. 2:11-12 - we see that baptism is the new circumcision for all people of the New Testament. Baptism is therefor applied to infants as well as adults. God clearly did not make the New Testament more narrow than the Old (it is open to ALL, not just the Jewish people's).
Matthew 18:2-5. Jesus says that unless we become like children, we cannot enter Heaven. Why would we exclude those whom we are to emulate according to Christ?
Matthew 19:14. The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to children. There is no age minimum to enter Heaven. There is no age limit to be baptized.

There is nothing in Scripture speaking of a 'believers only' baptism.

Acts 2:38-39. Peter says to the multitude, 'repent and be baptized...' You claim that this proves repentance must come first. I don't usually like to defer to the Greek, since I don't speak it, but the Greek here literally says: 'if you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized'. The actual Greek is:' Metanoesate Kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.' This would run quite contrary to your stated position and demonstrate that babies are actually baptized on their parents' faith. This is further confirmed in verse 39. 'Those far off' refers to family members who were not physically standing in Peter's presence. This is not a solely 'Catholic' position. Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican and Eastern Orthodox alike have studied this verse and concluded that 'those far off' includes children. Might doesn't make right, but 2,000 years of study and differing groups have all reached the same conclusion on this verse...and they don't side with you.
We see this works even when we include Paul in the mix. In Acts 16:15, Paul baptized the entire household based one the faith of only one person, Lydia. Same with the jailer from verse 33 of the same chapter. There is no limitation for 'age of reason' to have been achieved.

matthew 9:2; Mark 2:3-5. The faith of those who brought the paralytic is said to be what cured his sins. This is a perfect example of how the faith of one person can affect the soul of another. Just like how infant baptism could affect the faith of the infant...
Same with the centurion's servant.
1 Cor. 7:14. Paul says to us that children are sanctified by God through the belief of even only one parent.

And finally, in Romans, Paul tells us that sin came through Adam, and death through sin. A babies soul is just as much affected by this as an adults. (Romans 5).

Using only Scripture, we see that there is nowhere to be found an exclusion of infants from the New Testament. And that there are examples in The Word where they are included. Please prayerfully review The Word.
The Catholic Church would not and does not deny that repentance and confession of faith should come from an adult who wishes to be baptized, but also stands firmly in The Word by concluding that infant baptism is not only acceptable, but preferred. Why wouldn't we bring someone to Christ as early as possible?

Peace in Christ Kirsten.

I think circumcision was an outward sign to identify the people of israel, not a requirement for salvation.
The main reason for not baptizing infants is babies are not able to make a commitment to live their lives to the obedience and service of God. No one can do this for him or her. Parents cannot make decisions about something as important and critical as conversion for their children.
The examples you provide only are alluded to, there is no biblical record of immersing a child in water.
referring to a household in the bible usually means servants and consultants.
I can;t find any direct or specific cases in scripture which does not need interpretation.
if a baby died early in life God has promised they will be resurrected and given the chance to learn and understand
the truth of God- Rev 20:5
In Acts 8:12 we see women and men, old enough and mature enough to understand and " believed " the preaching of
those things about the Kingdom of God and Jesus Christ
repentance means to change one's mind and actions- a conscious recognition of one's sinning.
A person must be able to accept Jesus Christ as their savior before baptism. It cannot be done by proxy.

 

[Albion]

If water baptism is necessary for a person to be saved, that's salvation by works, is it not?

No. It's not a "work" in a theological sense even if it "takes some work" (colloquially speaking ) to accomplish it.

 

[Hawkiz]

I think circumcision was an outward sign to identify the people of israel, not a requirement for salvation.
The main reason for not baptizing infants is babies are not able to make a commitment to live their lives to the obedience and service of God. No one can do this for him or her. Parents cannot make decisions about something as important and critical as conversion for their children.
The examples you provide only are alluded to, there is no biblical record of immersing a child in water.
referring to a household in the bible usually means servants and consultants.
I can;t find any direct or specific cases in scripture which does not need interpretation.
if a baby died early in life God has promised they will be resurrected and given the chance to learn and understand
the truth of God- Rev 20:5
In Acts 8:12 we see women and men, old enough and mature enough to understand and " believed " the preaching of
those things about the Kingdom of God and Jesus Christ
repentance means to change one's mind and actions- a conscious recognition of one's sinning.
A person must be able to accept Jesus Christ as their savior before baptism. It cannot be done by proxy.

Your first sentence is partly correct: circumcision was an outward sign to identify people...the CHOSEN PEOPLE. Chosen for what? God Himself laid down the 'rules' of what it means to be chosen by Him, and circumcision was THE mark of being part of His Covenant. It accomplished something very real in that it set the chosen apart from the 'not chosen'. What were they set apart for? Could someone be set apart and not be circumcised? Did Hebrew parents under the Old Testament have the authority to bind their children to that Covenant? If so, please explain why Christian parent would not also have the authority to enter their children into the New Covenant? Is there Scripture to show that this was stripped away?

using the logic that only those who can make a conscious recognition of both their sins and be able to accept Jesus Christ as Savior, we must also follow St. Paul's words to the Thessolonians:
2 Thess. 3:10. 'If anyone is unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.' It says 'anyone'. Does this mean that since infants and children are unwilling or unable to work, that we should starve them until such a time as they are willing to work? Of course not. The verbs 'to repent', 'to believe' and 'to work' apply only to the extent that the individual is able to apply them.

Further, we see in St. Luke's Gospel account:
Luke 18:15-17. '15 Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.".
Note please that these are infants.
Please also note that adults CAN hinder infants and children from coming to Jesus.
The Kingdom of God belongs to them, referring to these same infants.
If an adult can hinder someone from coming to Jesus, does it not follow that this same adult can also aid that infant in coming to Him? Why or why not? Does Jesus rebuke those who hinder these infants from coming to Him?

Now, before you jump on me with 'Luke 18 isn't about baptism!', I am aware, but all Scripture works together.

Peace in Christ

 

[Hawkiz]

I think circumcision was an outward sign to identify the people of israel, not a requirement for salvation.
The main reason for not baptizing infants is babies are not able to make a commitment to live their lives to the obedience and service of God. No one can do this for him or her. Parents cannot make decisions about something as important and critical as conversion for their children.
The examples you provide only are alluded to, there is no biblical record of immersing a child in water.
referring to a household in the bible usually means servants and consultants.
I can;t find any direct or specific cases in scripture which does not need interpretation.
if a baby died early in life God has promised they will be resurrected and given the chance to learn and understand
the truth of God- Rev 20:5
In Acts 8:12 we see women and men, old enough and mature enough to understand and " believed " the preaching of
those things about the Kingdom of God and Jesus Christ
repentance means to change one's mind and actions- a conscious recognition of one's sinning.
A person must be able to accept Jesus Christ as their savior before baptism. It cannot be done by proxy.

We can agree that Scripture does not provide a word for word, specific example of an infant being baptized. Can we also agree that it does not provide a word for word, specific exclusion for baptism of an infant? Why or why not?
And if faith can not be applied by proxy as you contend, then why would Jesus say that this exact scenario took place in the case of the paralytic? Of the father of the boy possessed by demons? Why does St. Paul say that the faith of even one parent can save a child? Please explain how faith via proxy can not happen when Scripture provides us with examples that it does in fact happen? Does The Word not say that Lydia's household was saved through her baptism? The Jailer? Those 'far off'? These seem to be perfect word for word, specific examples of faith by proxy? If you disagree, can you please post the Scripture that says that these examples are incorrect? Are these accounts false? Or does The Word actually support faith by proxy...at least as the impetus for faith? I would contend that faith by proxy as you put it can, does, and sometimes even should happen. Would the norm be that a person still must follow Christ as they grow (both in age and in faith)? Most assuredly YES, we are called to grow ever closer to Him. To be more like Him every single day that we breathe.

Peace in Christ