Baptism - Requirement or Not

[skylark1]

What scripture do LDS base rebaptism on for those who have been excommunicated and later wish to become members of the LDS Church again? If LDS believe that a person is born again by baptism and the laying on of hands, then do they believe that a person can be born again, and again?

 

[Ran77]

What scripture do LDS base rebaptism on for those who have been excommunicated and later wish to become members of the LDS Church again? If LDS believe that a person is born again by baptism and the laying on of hands, then do they believe that a person can be born again, and again?

I don't know what scriptures the Church believes support this?

 

[skylark1]

I don't know what scriptures the Church believes support this?

Thanks for responding anyway. At least I know that you weren't ignoring the question. Maybe someone else knows.

Maybe you can answer this. Without going back and finding a direct quote that you have made, I think that you consider baptism to be similar to circumsion, as you believe that both are how one enters or entered into a covenant, similar to signing your name on a contract. Is this correct?

I recently read this passage from Romans:

Romans 4
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
​

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, do you think that it is logical to conclude that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?


Thanks.

 

[skylark1]

I would appreciate it if anyone who is LDS would respond to the previous post.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Doc T]

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, do you think that it is logical to conclude that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?


Thanks.

Yes. (I am assuming this will have a follow-up question which will have to wait until tomorrow for a response as I am leaving town. )

Doc

~

 

[Enflamed]

sounds pretty legalistic to me. Oh, and works based too. I don't buy it. I think baptism is very important, but to say 'if you are not baptised, you won't go to heaven' is pushing the importance just a bit.

I'm getting baptised Sunday, if I have a car accident between now and Sunday, I'll go to Hell, according to your beliefs, despite the fact that I've been a christian all my life. I was raised Quaker, and Quakers don't practice baptism, but I can assure you that they are no less christian than anyone else.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Is Jesus Lying? Did he make a mistake? Perhaps he didn't mean what he said?

Obeying the commands of the gospel isn't legalism. Legalism is trying to apply the Law to a circumstance without a valid reason. Don't be duped into thinking less of Jesus words.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


Baptism is necessary to even see the kingdom of God let alone enter it. It is being born of the water. You also must be born of the Spirit. Without fulfilling the born again process you won't get into heaven. Jesus said So.

 

[Rescued One]

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

No problem. Those who have received the new birth are grafted onto the Vine (Jesus). Without Him you can do nothing.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This has to be taken in context with the rest of the New Testament teachings about works and justification. By faith we are justified before God; by works we are justified before men.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You are aware, are you not, that a second birth is required of each of us. First we come out of the bag of water that surrounded us in our mother's womb; then we must have a new birth by the Holy Spirit.

Is Jesus Lying? Did he make a mistake? Perhaps he didn't mean what he said?

Jesus did not lie, nor make a mistake, nor say something that He didn't mean.

Baptism is necessary to even see the kingdom of God let alone enter it. It is being born of the water. You also must be born of the Spirit. Without fulfilling the born again process you won't get into heaven. Jesus said So.

You're almost right, but we do not fulfill a process, and baptism is not part of the new birth. The new birth is wrought by the Holy Spirit, not us.

 

[gort]

GWIT Quote:

You're almost right, but we do not fulfill a process, and baptism is not part of the new birth. The new birth is wrought by the Holy Spirit, not us.

And the works are wrought by the Holy Spirit, not us.

<><

 

[skylark1]

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, do you think that it is logical to conclude that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?


Thanks.

Yes. (I am assuming this will have a follow-up question which will have to wait until tomorrow for a response as I am leaving town. )

Doc

~

If you believe that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized, then why do you assume that one is not "saved" unless they have been baptized (by proper LDS authority) ?

 

[Doc T]

If you believe that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized, then why do you assume that one is not "saved" unless they have been baptized (by proper LDS authority) ?

Because of how we understand Christ's injunction to be "born again" in order to be saved in the kingdom of God. Baptism is for the remission of sins in order that we may receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and enter into the convenant with Christ.

Doc

~

 

[Rescued One]

Because of how we understand Christ's injunction to be "born again" in order to be saved in the kingdom of God. Baptism is for the remission of sins in order that we may receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and enter into the convenant with Christ.

Doc

~

I have some questions. Are you saying that only those who are baptized can have the Holy Ghost? When you say "for the remission of sins" are you interpreting that as the Church of Christ does---that the water washes away the person's sins?

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The words of the Holy Bible and the teachings of Christ.

 

[Doc T]

I have some questions. Are you saying that only those who are baptized can have the Holy Ghost?

The Gift of the Holy Ghost given by the imposition of hands by the apostles was only given after baptism. That is what the very early Christians taught and believed and that I what I believe.

When you say "for the remission of sins" are you interpreting that as the Church of Christ does---that the water washes away the person's sins?

I'm not an expert on the Church of Christ, but again, if you read what the early Christians taught and believed, they believed that baptism was for a remission of sins and that is what the LDS church teaches today.

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

Romans 4

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, do you think that it is logical to conclude that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?

Yes.

If you believe that someone's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized, then why do you assume that one is not "saved" unless they have been baptized ?

Because of how we understand Christ's injunction to be "born again" in order to be saved in the kingdom of God. Baptism is for the remission of sins in order that we may receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and enter into the convenant with Christ.

Circumcision was said to be the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham. Since a covenant is an agreement between two parties, do you consider baptism to be the covenant itself or a sign of the covenant? I

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, then why do you not believe that one's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?

 

[Rescued One]

I'm not an expert on the Church of Christ, but again, if you read what the early Christians taught and believed, they believed that baptism was for a remission of sins and that is what the LDS church teaches today.

Doc

~

'For the remission of sins" is in the Bible. I'm asking you how the LDS interpret that. Do the LDS believe that there is remission of sins before or during baptism? Can there be remission of sins without baptism?

 

[Doc T]

Circumcision was said to be the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham. Since a covenant is an agreement between two parties, do you consider baptism to be the covenant itself or a sign of the covenant?

Baptism is not the covenant, but is the sign of the covenant.

If Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness before he was circumcised, then why do you not believe that one's faith in Christ is credited to them as righteousness before they are baptized?

Where did I say that one's faith in Christ is *not* credited to them as righteousness? It is, but it does not exempt one from baptism.

Doc

~

 

[Rescued One]

Baptism is not the covenant, but is the sign of the covenant.



Where did I say that one's faith in Christ is *not* credited to them as righteousness? It is, but it does not exempt one from baptism.

Doc

~

Are you saying that if one has faith and never gets baptized, he isn't righteous enough?

 

[Doc T]

'For the remission of sins" is in the Bible. I'm asking you how the LDS interpret that. Do the LDS believe that there is remission of sins before or during baptism? Can there be remission of sins without baptism?

I believe that the term "for the remission of sins" in intimately tied to baptism (Acts 2:38). The remission of sins comes after baptism and reciept of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. While their may be repentance of various sins prior to baptism. For the remission of all sins requires baptism.

Doc

~

 

[Doc T]

Are you saying that if one has faith and never gets baptized, he isn't righteous enough?

Righteous enough for what?

Doc

~

 

[Rescued One]

Righteous enough for what?

Doc

~

Righteous enough to have his sins remitted/to be saved/to have eternal life.

You followed up and said:

I believe that the term "for the remission of sins" in intimately tied to baptism (Acts 2:38). The remission of sins comes after baptism and reciept of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. While their may be repentance of various sins prior to baptism. For the remission of all sins requires baptism.

But the Bible says those who believe are saved, those who believe have remission of sins. It doesn't say, "Those who believe have remission of some sins and baptism takes care of the rest."

[bible]Acts 10:43[/bible]