Baptism - Requirement or Not

[Doc T]

Ran,

I was persuing some of the posts in this discussion, and have a question. It seems that you have indicated that baptism in water is for the forgiveness of sins. If you believe that sins are forgiven by baptism in water, then why was it necessary for Jesus to die?


It isn't the water of baptism that cleanses us from sin, but the blood of Christ.

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I'm not Ran, but I thought I would give my thoughts here. We believe that it is through baptism that we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ that makes his atonement effective in our lives.

Doc

~

 

[Ran77]

I'm not Ran, but I thought I would give my thoughts here. We believe that it is through baptism that we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ that makes his atonement effective in our lives.

Doc

~

I'm not Ran, but I play him on tv...Sorry, I had a distracted moment there.


That sounds pretty good. I would have phrased it: the blood of Christ atones for our sins, but it is our baptism that gives us access to the atonement. They both mean the same thing.

 

[skylark1]

I'm not Ran, but I thought I would give my thoughts here. We believe that it is through baptism that we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ that makes his atonement effective in our lives.

Doc

~

Do you consider it to be a sign of the covenant?

 

[Ran77]

Do you consider it to be a sign of the covenant?

What do you mean a sign of the covenant?

 

[skylark1]

What do you mean a sign of the covenant?

Circumsion was a sign of the old covenant. Do you believe that baptism is a sign of the new covenant?



Genesis 17
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. NIV

Genesis 17
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. KJV

Genesis 17
11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. NASB

 

[Frankie]

I'm not Ran, but I thought I would give my thoughts here. We believe that it is through baptism that we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ that makes his atonement effective in our lives.

Doc

~

Does this mean that according to lds belief, that even if someone believes in Jesus and has put their faith in Him, if they don't get baptized by water then Christ's atonement is not effective in their lives?

 

[Ran77]

Circumsion was a sign of the old covenant. Do you believe that baptism is a sign of the new covenant?



Genesis 17
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. NIV

Genesis 17
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. KJV

Genesis 17
11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. NASB

Yes. I would say it is a sign of the covenant between us and God.

 

[skylark1]

Yes. I would say it is a sign of the covenant between us and God.

Thanks for clarifying.

Circumsion was a sign of the old covenant. Paul wrote that circumsion is merely outward and physical, but one is a Jew 9one who pleases God) if he is one inwardly, and the circumsion is of the circumsion of the heart, by the Spirit.

Acts 2
29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Jeremiah wrote: "Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts..." (4:4)

So, do you consider baptism to be an outward sign of an inner heartfelt devotion to following Christ ... an inner decision to identify with his death by dying to ourselves, and living for Him ... an outer sign of a heart that is right with God?

 

[The Thadman]

So, do you consider baptism to be an outward sign of an inner heartfelt devotion to following Christ ... an inner decision to identify with his death by dying to ourselves, and living for Him ... an outer sign of a heart that is right with God?

Baptism in the Jewish sense or Baptism in the mainstream Christian sense?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[skylark1]

Baptism in the Jewish sense or Baptism in the mainstream Christian sense?

Peace!
-Steve-o

Neither, as the person that I was asking is neither Jewish, or a "mainstream Christian," but LDS!

 

[Ran77]

So, do you consider baptism to be an outward sign of an inner heartfelt devotion to following Christ ... an inner decision to identify with his death by dying to ourselves, and living for Him ... an outer sign of a heart that is right with God?

I consider it that AND a true covenant - where the person promises God that they will do His will.

 

[skylark1]

I consider it that AND a true covenant - where the person promises God that they will do His will.

I don't understand how you can say that baptism is the covenant, in addition to being a sign of the covenant. Wouldn't you concur that a covenant is an agreement that is made between two or more parties?

 

[The Thadman]

Neither, as the person that I was asking is neither Jewish, or a "mainstream Christian," but LDS!

I guess I missed a lot of context by just "jumping on in," I need to be more careful.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Ran77]

I don't understand how you can say that baptism is the covenant, in addition to being a sign of the covenant. Wouldn't you concur that a covenant is an agreement that is made between two or more parties?

Technically a covenant is an agreement. As such baptism is a token of that covenant. Also, the comments you made illustrate what the baptism represents and henceforth is appropriate as a token of it.

On the other hand, I believe that it is at your baptism that you officially enter into that covenant - similar to adding your signature to a contract. It is at the baptism that the covenant is made / becomes a reality. In that sense I could see the baptism could be considered the covenant.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Frankie]

Technically a covenant is an agreement. As such baptism is a token of that covenant. Also, the comments you made illustrate what the baptism represents and henceforth is appropriate as a token of it.

On the other hand, I believe that it is at your baptism that you officially enter into that covenant - similar to adding your signature to a contract. It is at the baptism that the covenant is made / becomes a reality. In that sense I could see the baptism could be considered the covenant.

I hope that makes sense.

Ran, is baptism of water the actual convenant or is it the outward sign of the actual covenant?

 

[shawn_h76]

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[Enflamed]

Baptism is required. It is the water part of being born again. Must happen in the name of Jesus or you aren't going to heaven. Period.

 

[Frankie]

Baptism is required. It is the water part of being born again. Must happen in the name of Jesus or you aren't going to heaven. Period.

Says who? Where does the Word of God say this?

 

[skylark1]

What scripture do LDS base rebaptism on for those who have been excommunicated and later wish to become members of the LDS Church again? If LDS believe that a person is born again by baptism and the laying on of hands, then do they believe that a person can be born again, and again?

 

[blessedbe]

Baptism is required. It is the water part of being born again. Must happen in the name of Jesus or you aren't going to heaven. Period.

sounds pretty legalistic to me. Oh, and works based too. I don't buy it. I think baptism is very important, but to say 'if you are not baptised, you won't go to heaven' is pushing the importance just a bit.

I'm getting baptised Sunday, if I have a car accident between now and Sunday, I'll go to Hell, according to your beliefs, despite the fact that I've been a christian all my life. I was raised Quaker, and Quakers don't practice baptism, but I can assure you that they are no less christian than anyone else.