Baptism or not

[childofaking]

Hello to everyone at the SA. Although brought up in the salvation army
i now attend a methodist church but have very fond memories of the army and am forever grateful to them for teaching me music amongst most of my early christian teaching. I had many relatives who were officers and very dedicated christians. Anyway my question is on baptism , officially i have never been baptised but was dedicated as a baby, can you please explain to me what the dedication service is, i ask this because some believe salvation is not complete without baptism which means those of us raised in the army in there view are not saved, can i hear this from an army perspective because i know you have different views on the sacraments but i have great trust in the salvation army view because i know the spirit lives within that part of gods church.

Thankyou and god bless you all.

 

[PhotoMatt]

Hello, childofaking!

My name is Matt, and, like you, I was brought up in The Salvation Army. My parents were officers at one point, and are still very active in the local corps. I too am very grateful for the early biblical teachings I received in Sunday School, Corps Cadets, and other Army settings -- but like you, I have also left the Army to follow God's will for my life.

I was baptized in the late eighties while attending a Pentecostal church. I am convinced that The Salvation Army has missed the boat when it comes to the sacraments -- and pray in my heart that their views will someday change.

Now, with that said, I have to encourage you not to listen to those who might demean your Salvation because you weren't baptized. Baptism is something that God clearly asks us to do, and something we are told to train new believers in, but it is NOT a Salvation issue. You are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ -- and nothing more is required. Your choice, then, is to follow Christ in His example of Baptism or not. SA, as a whole, has chosen "not" -- but that doesn't mean they aren't saved...

My advice to you, for what it's worth, is, if you have the opportunity, get baptized! It is a beautiful representation of God's sacrifice and our acceptance of His Gift -- and He asks you to follow Him in it. Don't do it because someone told you it's "necessary." Do it because you love Him and want to obey Him in it.

My wife and I had our children dedicated in another Pentecostal church. A dedication ceremony is more for the parents and church than it is for the child. In it, the parents promise to raise the child that God has given them in Him to the best of their ability, and the congregation promises to help them do this. The child is dedicated to God's will for it's life, or, given back to God, just as Samuel was.


When our children came of age to accept Christ, they were then baptized into Him. Dedication isn't a substitute for baptism -- but more of a promise to God to train the children up to Salvation and then baptism.

I hope that all makes sense. I'm new here, too, but I thought that my background and life experience made me capable of answering your questions, and I pray I have done so in a way that will help and edify you as you grow in Christ and His love

In His service,
Matt

 

[childofaking]

Thankyou matt for your answer , its kind of what i new to be true, i believe the sacraments are important too and i believe many in the salvation army believe they should be part of there church, that said the lord is just as much with them as any other church so who knows.
My grandparents were officers for over 60 years and really gave there lives for gods service and although they are not with me anymore i see them as great examples of christianity in action not only working in this country (uk) but for along time in india as sa missionaries

 

[Evangelina]

I'm going to quote another Salvationist who commented on this topic recently... his name is Gilbert Ellis, he had some great points.

It is not enough to say that the early Army dropped the sacraments because of the involvement with alcohol, or even as I have heard it said, we had women officers, and 140 years ago it would be socially unacceptable for them to administer the sacraments. The true reason is simpler and more profound than that. The Salvationist affirms that no outward sacrament is essential to the spiritual life. The sacraments, for many, can be a real means of grace, but the Army's history underlines the truth, again and again, that the Christlike life can be achieved without resource to outward
rituals.

There is only one fundament, one rock upon which we build, that Christ, the Son of God is our Saviour and Lord. We believe in Jn. 3:16 with no additions. Not - those that believe and are baptised in water, or - those that believe and partake of the sacraments. But simply - whosoever believeth on Him!

If we were to adopt the sacraments, we would have to define what we mean by them, and we would confirm that the Christian life is incomplete without them.

God forbid!

Ah, I hear some of you say, are not the sacraments commanded by our Lord? Please remember that the Jewish Passover, then as now, was to remember when the Israelites were freed from slavery. They daubed the entrance to the home with the blood of a lamb, and having eaten the Passover meal prepared to leave Egypt and slavery. Jesus was saying to his disciples, when you celebrate Passover from now on, think of me, and how my blood can free you from the judgement of sin, and you receive eternal life. John's gospel is the most spiritual of the gospels, but he doesn't mention the communion command which is suprising if it was meant to be a binding command for all Christians. Similarly, Jesus did not baptise,
but promised that his followers would be baptised in the Holy Spirit.
I could say much more on the subject, but suffice it to say that I
am proud of the Army's position on this subject, and we do not need to apologise to anyone for our stance, far less begin copying other
branches of the universal church.

We respect those who practice the sacraments, but claim the liberty in Christ to refrain. Hallelujah!

 

[PhotoMatt]

My grandparents were officers for over 60 years and really gave there lives for gods service and although they are not with me anymore i see them as great examples of christianity in action not only working in this country (uk) but for along time in india as sa missionaries

Cool! My grandparents were local officers. My Grandpa was the treasurer, and my Grandma helped with Social Services and played the piano on Sundays. Even though they have been "Promoted to Glory" I can still hear my Grandmother singing and playing the piano when certain hymns are played or sung.

As I said, my parents are still committed to the work of the Army. My dad's main job is fundraising -- and he also heads up the drop in center for the homeless. My mom was in charge of the food pantry and food distribution and the like, but she retired a few months ago. In spite of that, though, she's still there several times a week, volunteering...

I wonder what the differences are between, say, the way the SA runs and operates in the states, and they way they do things there in the UK. It must be cool to be near where the Army first began.

In His Service,
Matt

 

[PhotoMatt]

I should probably let this part of the discussion drop, but feel compelled to say that if one doesn't participate in the sacraments, one looses a blessing. Jesus was baptized -- and told his disciples to go to all nations and baptize. He also asked his followers to do this (communion) to remember Him, and communion was celebrated by the early Church as a Church tradition and not a Jewish one. I have also participated in foot washing services -- all of these are tender, beautiful expressions of love and service, both to God Himself, and one for another. Salvation is not at issue here, but the understanding and blessing that comes from experiencing these events and taking part in their historical and traditional value is. Just as Passover symbolizes Christ's sacrifice for a nation, and the world, so, these sacraments help us touch and give substance (in a small way) to Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

It's not a salvation issue -- but it really feel (and I am certain that many Salvationists would agree) the it is a good thing for individuals to experience these sacraments at least once in their life. I think the blessing that is received is worth it.

In His Service,
Matt

 

[mac8]

Hi

Just to say I disagree with Gilbert that we should have to define the sacraments - in other words form a solid theology about them and way of doing them that we impose on everyone. That is more about power than about anything else, and inappropriate in our context.

Warmest blessings,
Eleanor
Sister under private vows
Penzance

 

[Evangelina]

I should probably let this part of the discussion drop, but feel compelled to say that if one doesn't participate in the sacraments, one looses a blessing.

Hmmm... any bible references for this, or simply experience? I mean, I'm tempted to agree on the communion-blessing idea, since I look back on communion at my old Lutheran church with affection and nostalgia... BUT I think my current church eats and 'lives life' together far better than any other I've attended. The ceremony seems far more symbolic to me than actual blessing or 'joining', if that makes sense.

Jesus was baptized

Mmmm... wasn't he 'baptised' in the old Jewish 'ceremony of repentance and rebirth' offered by John the Baptist?

-- and told his disciples to go to all nations and baptize.

... go to all nations and make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A perennial debate rages as to whether he meant water baptism ("I baptise you with water," said John the Baptist) or spiritual baptism ("but he will baptise you with fire")

He also asked his followers to do this (communion) to remember Him,

Is this something you've been told (that Jesus meant 'do the ceremony of Communion'), or that you've researched in depth and decided for yourself?

and communion was celebrated by the early Church as a Church tradition and not a Jewish one.

Hmmmm... what references do you have for this? I've seen references to 'love feasts', but these are commonly considered to be different to the 'Holy Communion' we celebrate today. Even in 1 Corinthians 11 - sometimes read in communion services - the implication seems to be of a meal eaten together, rather than a small piece of bread and a sip of wine.

I have also participated in foot washing services -- all of these are tender, beautiful expressions of love and service, both to God Himself, and one for another. Salvation is not at issue here, but the understanding and blessing that comes from experiencing these events and taking part in their historical and traditional value is. Just as Passover symbolizes Christ's sacrifice for a nation, and the world, so, these sacraments help us touch and give substance (in a small way) to Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

I guess I partly agree, and partly disagree. They CAN do this... but I think that real (as opposed to symbolic) acts of service to other christians and to non-christians give us far more participation in Christ's life and mission.

 

[ChristInAction]

I think everyones said it but i might add in too.

A Babies dedactation is just the parents thanking God for the new borns life, acnolaging that the baby is Gods & making a comitment to help their child grow up well & keep them from anything harmful in body, mind & spirit. (I've sat threw too many of them to know all this lol)
Becoming a soldior later on is comitting yourself to God, pretty much like a bapitsum but without water. Saying that you believe in God, You believe all the SA doctines say & you'll try your hardest with Gods help to stay on His true path.
We dont baptize, I think from the many times I've question this my self, is that we dont believe a bapisum is the way to salvation, it doesnt matter what you do. Jesus blood is the only way. Sure its fine & we read that in the bible but just because your baptized doesnt mean your saved.
SA offices ARE aloud to conduct a baptisum if someone would like them to.

 

[PhotoMatt]

When I spoke if blessing, I was speaking from experience. Biblically, there will always be a blessing for following God's leading, but, since some here don't see the sacraments as God-led, I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Yes, it's true that Christ was baptized while under the law -- but this "new" baptism to repentance that John was moved by God to introduce was continued by Jesus in His ministry and after his death. The 11 and all the other followers didn’t misunderstood Him when he said "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?" This was literally referring to water baptism into Christ.

After Pentecost, the new believers were baptized in water (Acts 2 37-41) and Paul, himself, baptized and sanctioned baptism (1 Corinthians 1:13-16, Acts 16:30-33, Acts 19:3-7). Peter baptized the first Gentile Christians (Acts 10:47 - 48) and Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:29-40). Were these all mistakes made by those who were closest to Jesus? I don’t think so.

None of the sacraments are an "order," per se. but Jesus did say that "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19) Then Paul says:

1 Corinthians 11
23. For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24. and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25. In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

How can this not refer to communion? I mean, it was obviously a different ceremony back than. Our little thimble of grape juice and sliver of cracker wouldn’t compare to their celebration of Christ’s death and resurrection – but I can’t see how these verses (and the others with them) could pertain to anything else.

In conclusion, I would NEVER advice anyone to use any of the sacraments as a substitute for reaching out to the world and the Body -- just as you would never ask anyone to wear the uniform instead of helping the poor or meeting someone’s need. That would be shameful on both accounts! All I wanted to say was don’t close yourselves off to these things. I’ve had these debates with others before, and we’re probably not going to convince each other we are right – just keep an open heart to God, and an open mind to His leading. I have no doubt that, if you do this, He will lead you into the places He wants you to go. Ironically, His leading usually comes with unexpected results, too.

In His Service,
Matt

 

[Evangelina]

When I spoke if blessing, I was speaking from experience. Biblically, there will always be a blessing for following God's leading, but, since some here don't see the sacraments as God-led, I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Yes, it's true that Christ was baptized while under the law -- but this "new" baptism to repentance that John was moved by God to introduce

From what I've read, this baptism was NOT new... baptism as a cleansing ceremony was centuries old at this point.

Immersion in water (baptism), according to Jewish customs and ceremonies, was considered a supreme symbol of consecration. By complete submergence under water one severs all contact with his visible surroundings. Upon re-emergence he begins life anew, like a newborn babe (Yevamot 22a). Converts to Judaism were required to precede their initiation into the new faith with immersion as a symbol of consecration (Yevamot 46b). Immersion in water was a symbolic act of cleansing, having turned from sin in order to devote oneself to God.​

There had been a silence of the prophetic word for approximately four-hundred years when John came, announcing that the Kingdom of God was at hand and calling all Israel to a public act of repentance through baptism to prepare for the coming of the Messiah.
Source​

Hence why there was such an outcry in the very early church at the idea of baptising new believers in water.
​

was continued by Jesus in His ministry

Hmmmm... Jesus doesn't seem to have baptised anyone.

and after his death. The 11 and all the other followers didn’t misunderstood Him when he said "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?" This was literally referring to water baptism into Christ.

It was? How do you KNOW this?

After Pentecost, the new believers were baptized in water (Acts 2 37-41) and Paul, himself, baptized and sanctioned baptism (1 Corinthians 1:13-16, Acts 16:30-33, Acts 19:3-7). Peter baptized the first Gentile Christians (Acts 10:47 - 48) and Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:29-40). Were these all mistakes made by those who were closest to Jesus? I don’t think so.

Certainly water baptism was commonly used by the apostles. No argument there.

None of the sacraments are an "order," per se. but Jesus did say that "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19) Then Paul says:

1 Corinthians 11
23. For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24. and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25. In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

How can this not refer to communion?

Quite easily, really!

I mean, it was obviously a different ceremony back than. Our little thimble of grape juice and sliver of cracker wouldn’t compare to their celebration of Christ’s death and resurrection – but I can’t see how these verses (and the others with them) could pertain to anything else.

It's quite difficult to work out exactly what Jesus meant when he said, "Do this in remembrance of me" .... especially when for the wine he added "whenever you drink it" ... it doesn't make sense to assume he means "eat bread and drink wine together" in the context in which he spoke (eat bread and drink wine together every time you drink wine???). Was he talking about a particular prayer? The act of giving thanks? The sharing of the bread and wine? A remembrance during the traditional Passover meal?

I'm not debating with you because I want to prove that I'm 'right' and you're 'wrong'. I don't think it's anywhere near as easy as that. Rather, I want to make it clear that there are several interpretations ofseveral christian issues, and none of these can be conclusively proven right or wrong... they're all just possibilities. Sometimes one makes more sense to us simply because we've grown up with a particular explanation of particular verses, and never questioned it. I actually grew up with a heavy Lutheran influence, so I've done a lot of digging into this and many other subjects to see what I REALLY believe, rather than what I've been taught.

In conclusion, I would NEVER advice anyone to use any of the sacraments as a substitute for reaching out to the world and the Body -- just as you would never ask anyone to wear the uniform instead of helping the poor or meeting someone’s need. That would be shameful on both accounts! All I wanted to say was don’t close yourselves off to these things. I’ve had these debates with others before, and we’re probably not going to convince each other we are right – just keep an open heart to God, and an open mind to His leading. I have no doubt that, if you do this, He will lead you into the places He wants you to go. Ironically, His leading usually comes with unexpected results, too.

Mmmmm... tell me about it. God definitely has a sense of humour... I often suspect him of leading me in particular ways and then rolling around in fits of laughter at my reactions...

 

[PhotoMatt]

There's still a bunch more to say, bit I think we covered the basics pretty well. As I said earlier, my Parents are Salvationists, and so were my Mom's parents. I was in the Army until I was 18 or so, so these discussions are no new thing to me.

I've also spent alot of time visiting the nursing homes, ringing the bell, warming the pews, cleaning up (I did Janatorial work for the local SA), visiting the food pantry, playing volleyBall, the list goes on and on! LOL

I don't know why I said that. Just a few SA Memories.

Hey, I think I might start a thread with that title. That would be neat...

In His Service,
Matt

PS, they should have a spell checker on this thing...LOL

 

[BoazB]

Hi folks. I don't want to disturb this thread disccussion, as theological debate I find difficult and frightening, BUT...

Regarding the OP: There are things we do as an "outward sign of an inward experience". Some wear uniform to say they are saved. Way back they even wore prison suits outside to say they had been arrested for proclaiming Jesus as Lord. Therefore...

My personal opinion is ... If you want to use this to point to Jesus, ... go for it! If you want to wear a uniform to point to Jesus, ... go for it! Whatever happens... point to Jesus.

 

[PhotoMatt]

Oh, no problem, BoazB! I'm not really up for debate, either. We've just been calmly discussing a few things here is all.

In His Service,
Matt

 

[PhotoMatt]

Ooh, I also wanted to post this little devotion I wrote several years ago. It doesn't have much to do with what we have been talking about, except that it pertains to communion and it's Jewish roots...

------------​

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.
Mark 14:22-24

The Bread and The Cup

During the Passover ceremony, three pieces of unleavened bread, or matzah are brought out in a special covering. This is known as a Unity. The middle piece of matzah is removed, broken, and hidden away. This hidden piece of break is known as the Afikmen.

Later on, during the meal, the Afikmen is brought forth from it’s hiding place, is blessed, and is broken and eaten. This is the piece of bread that Jesus broke and distributed to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

This bread was the middle piece of three, as in, Father, Son, Holy Ghost! This bread was broken and hidden away, just as Jesus’ body was broken and hidden in a tomb! This bread is known as the Afikmen, which means, “I have come”!

In the order of the Passover ceremony, a cup of wine known as “The Cup Of Redemption” is blessed and passed around for all to drink. This is the cup that Jesus offered to his disciples, saying, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,"

for 3500 years, the Jews have unknowingly foreshadowed Christ’s death in their Passover ceremony, and for 2000 years we have continued as Christians to do this in remembrance of our lord and savior. What a beautiful ceremony Passover is! What a beautiful ceremony Communion is! What a beautiful thing our Lord has done in connection them forever, through Jesus Christ!

----------​

In His Service,
Matt

 

[TheDag]

After Pentecost, the new believers were baptized in water (Acts 2 37-41) and Paul, himself, baptized and sanctioned baptism (1 Corinthians 1:13-16, Acts 16:30-33, Acts 19:3-7). Peter baptized the first Gentile Christians (Acts 10:47 - 48) and Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:29-40). Were these all mistakes made by those who were closest to Jesus? I don’t think so.

I just wanted to say that not all baptisms by the apostles mentioned water. So there is sufficient reason to doubt that water is required. Not even the catholic church believes water is essential for baptism. Just a thought.

 

[PhotoMatt]

I just wanted to say that not all baptisms by the apostles mentioned water. So there is sufficient reason to doubt that water is required. Not even the catholic church believes water is essential for baptism. Just a thought.

But water is mentioned more than once (in fact, many times), so the point I was trying to make is still valid. Baptism in water was done whenever possible by the people who were there at the great commission. Their understanding of Christ's last words to them was to baptize in water -- Is it possible that we are being a bit presumptuous when we redefine the words and events that these people actually witnessed and heard? Just something to think about...

In His Service,
Matt

 

[Evangelina]

Matt - nice devotion! The symbolism is very profound.

 

[TheDag]

But water is mentioned more than once (in fact, many times), so the point I was trying to make is still valid. Baptism in water was done whenever possible by the people who were there at the great commission. Their understanding of Christ's last words to them was to baptize in water -- Is it possible that we are being a bit presumptuous when we redefine the words and events that these people actually witnessed and heard? Just something to think about...

In His Service,
Matt

I would say that water baptisms being mentioned several times means something but to say it was done whenever possible is something I don't believe there is evidence to support. Certainly not in the bible. Having been raised in a denomination where water baptism is seen as essential I have done alot of research which started so I could prove to someone else that water baptism is essential. My current position has changed as a result. I am happy to change my view again if convinced. Although here is probably not the place for that discussion but rather via pm or starting another thread.

 

[PhotoMatt]

Matt - nice devotion! The symbolism is very profound.

Thanks. There was a great Messianic teacher named Zola Levitt who taught on this subject in depth. If you ever get a chance to see his Passover teaching, I would highly recommend it.

In His Service,
Matt