baptism necessary to be saved???

Florida College said:

A brethren in Christ,

Thank you for your reply....

I urge you to carefully study the context of the scriptures you have given me.

I Cor 12:13 - Honestly, I still don't understand your explanation or how this verse fits in with your defense. Could you please go into more detail.. Tell me about the context of this chapter....

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ONE SPIRIT BAPTIZED not water it is some thing that no one sees
[2cor 5:7]

regeneration is putting us into Christ add Titus 3:5 by the spirit

2 Cor 5:7 - This is an exellent passage. "For we walk by faith, not by sight." That is true, we walk by faith... But how does faith come about? "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing from the word of God." So..... what does the word of God tell us, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16 :16).

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water baptism was for repentance as in Matt 3:11
mark 16:16 was talking to the apostles vs 14 and they believed not
yes the apostles....did not believe

Heb. 11:1 - Consider the context of this chapter. This chapter gives numerous examples of men who had faith, but did faith alone save them???? Faith saves us when it drives us to obey God. Consider the faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, and others (Heb. 11:4-32).

GEN 15:6 AND ABRAM BELIEVED
hEB 11:17-19 FAITH

jAMES 2:21-26
gEN 22:1-14 WORKS

LITTLE TIME BETWEEN

Eph. 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith." - yes, by the Lord's grace we can saved through faith. But what is faith??? Is it just accepting Christ as your personal savior. That's not what I read in Hebrews 11...

WHERE DOES ONE GET FAITH.......???

FROM THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT GAL 5:22-23

SO HOW DOES ONE BELIEVE IF YOU GOTTA HAVE THE SPIRIT TO HAVE FAITH??? BY YOUR OWN POWER NO WAY POSSIBLE

Heb. 11:30 - "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days."
Heb. 11:7 - "By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household...."
Heb. 11:17 - "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had recieved the promises was offering up his only begotten son."

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BELIEVED IN GEN 15:6 TESTED IN GEN 22:1-14 ABOUT 30 YEARS BETWEEN NOT RIGHT AWAY

Eph. 4:4 -I don't understand what point you are making from this verse.... Explain....
vs. 5 tells us that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." What is so complicated about that? Does this verse tell us that faith alone will save?

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iN MATT 3:11 IT STATES THAT TWO BAPTISIMS WATER AND SPIRIT AND ONLY ONE BAPTISM THAT PUTS US IN CHRIST ACCORDING TO 1 COR 12:13 IT IS BY THE SPIRIT

John 6:28-29 - Look at this verse carefully... You are telling me that works are not necessary. This verse tells us that faith is a work. Our faith is to be a work, and this is not talking about God's faith.

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ALL THE WORKS PASSAGES ARE ABOUT US WORKING FOR SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE BUT GOD WORKS AT GUARDING ARE PROMISES IN THE HEAVENS ACCORDING TO 1PETER 1:4-5

AND ONCE AGAIN IT SHOWS WE DO NOTHING IN OUR SALAVATION LESS ANY OF US BOAST ABOUT HOW GOOD WE ARE PLEASE GO TO THOSE VERSE THAT i HAVE WRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES

Titus 3:5 - We do not earn our salvation through our works. We are saved by his mercy. Does this mean that works aren't necessary or important?... Does this mean that faith is the only condition we are to meet? Lets take a look at the first 2 verses in chapter 3...

EPHESIANS 2:10 FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

ALREADY IN CHRIST SO THEY HAVE ALREADY BELIEVED

SO NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

Titus 3:1 - Remind tem to be subject to rulers, to authorites, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed. Vs 2 - To malign no one, to be peacable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.

Is faith necessary for salvation... Yes. Will faith alone save one's soul?

Lets take a look -
John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men men rather than the approval of God.

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mATT 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. 22 MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD,HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THY HAVE CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? 23 AND THEN I WILL I PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY

WHAT IS WORK INIQUITY...WORKS OF THE FLESH REV 20:13, gAL 5:19-21

James 2:19: You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

These are 2 passages that clearly show faith alone does not save.

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LOOK AT MATT 7:21-23 EXPLAINATION

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brethren, do you claim to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit? Like the apostles in Acts 2 and the house of Cornelius in Acts 10?

aggie03, what denomination are you a member of?

To the person who started this thread,

I would suggest that you take a look at the thread that I started in the Liberal Theology section of this site. A lot of people have used the thief argument, but I try to answer every argument that is tossed out. Contact me and we can have a study through e-mail on this subject. I will give book, chapter, and verse answers. My e-mail address is dldjr86@hotmail.com. This invitation goes out to anyone else that wants to study this subject.

THE MATT 7:21-23 kind goes with psalms 53:2-4

aggie03 said:

brethren, do you claim to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit? Like the apostles in Acts 2 and the house of Cornelius in Acts 10?

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what do you mean?
sounds like a trick question.

yes

1cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1cor 12:18 But now hath God set the members everyone of them in the body, as it hath pleased them.

Yet even though I believed tongues happen in Act 2 I believe in 1 cor 12-14 were according to 1 cor 3:1-3 carnal thus according to Gal 4::29 are dangerous even though a christian

so I believe that 1 cor 13:8 is right now and will happen again in the last days like in act 2:17--21...Rev 4-20

if that is what you where asking

I am not a member of any denomination because Christ did not start a denomination. Rather He founded His church, the church of Christ. Why would I want to chase after a man and his ideas, when I can have Christ as the founder and head of my church?

a brethren, I don't believe that you addressed the last post, though I may be mistaken. Do you believe that you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit in the same manner that the apostles were in Acts 2 and the house of Cornelius in Acts 10? If you wouldn't mind answering this question, we should be able to clear up a lot of misunderstandings .

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

what do you mean?
sounds like a trick question.

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It's not a trick question, I was just trying to better understand what you believe.

yes

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Thank you for your answer. I wish that you would also consider answering the questions that gqaggie04 asked you yesterday. Those are not trick questions either, but are to help us better understand the word of God.

1cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1cor 12:18 But now hath God set the members everyone of them in the body, as it hath pleased them.

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I don't understand what point you're trying to make from these passages.

Yet even though I believed tongues happen in Act 2 I believe in 1 cor 12-14 were according to 1 cor 3:1-3 carnal thus according to Gal 4::29 are dangerous even though a christian

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I think that you've misunderstood the point of 1 Corinthians 3. Those verses aren't speaking about spiritual gifts at all, but rather that the Christians at Corinth didn't really understand the nature of the kingdom and that it was spiritual, after God alone and not after a man. They had wrong attitudes. There was strife and jealousy. They were acting like people who are of this world, rather than people who have a citizenship in heaven.

so I believe that 1 cor 13:8 is right now and will happen again in the last days like in act 2:17--21...Rev 4-20

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I asked specifically about the baptism of the Holy Spirit because there are certain signs that accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has only occurred twice in the the New Testament, Acts 2 &10). There was a might sound like a rushing wind - for the Spirit came with power. Immediately afterward, all who were baptized were blessed with certain spiritual gifts - specifically tongues. The baptism of the Holy Spirit only happened to groups of people in the New Testament.

So when you were baptized in this manner, was there some sort of sound like the rushing of a mighty wind that those in the surrounding area were able to hear? Were you immediately able to speak in tongues? Was there a large group of people who this happened to at the exact same time as you who were also given gifts?

If one of these things is false, then you could not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit like in Acts 2 & 10. I'll give you a chance to repy to this before I talk about 1 Corinthians 13.

I don't believe that anyone since the baptism of the apostles and those of Cornelius's house have been baptized with the Holy Spirit because there are no more spiritual gifts like are mentioned throughout the New Testament. The implications of this are that "Spirit Baptism" is not was is meant by verses like Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:4. These all refer to water baptism, which is for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38). This is a necessary condition that God has placed upon our salvation. It is not a boastful work, but a work of God and something that God has commanded must be done.

what are you asking?

See post 127 : http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=920478&postcount=127

ok so how do you deal with

2cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

or act 2 :17-21 the last days

vs 20 sun =darkness and moon into blood Isaiah 24:23

its so simple but I have had people argue

aggie03 said:

I think that you've misunderstood the point of 1 Corinthians 3. Those verses aren't speaking about spiritual gifts at all, but rather that the Christians at Corinth didn't really understand the nature of the kingdom and that it was spiritual, after God alone and not after a man. They had wrong attitudes. There was strife and jealousy. They were acting like people who are of this world, rather than people who have a citizenship in heaven.

.

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yes that mean that they were carnel and the need of milk like 1cor 3:1-4
stated and Romans 8:5-7 states what this means......... emity against God

Hebrew5:11-14 talks about milk and meat

two ways to walk as brethren in christ flesh and spirit Gal 5:16-17

Gal 4:29 states that the fleshly persucutes the spirit

Romans 8:5-13
2tim3:12

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

ok so how do you deal with

2cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

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Can you see God?

or act 2 :17-21 the last days

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I don't know which section of this you want me to address, so I'm going to ask you what you want to discuss about it

vs 20 sun =darkness and moon into blood Isaiah 24:23

its so simple but I have had people argue

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I don't understand what you're trying to prove. What do they argue?

that in 1cor 13:8 the last days is the reason it has quit so when they start it will be 1cor 14:22


plus add 2cor 5:7 to people doing tongue 2000 years after the bible been completed

This is probably going to wind up being a long reply - so I'm going to bed tonight. I will reply tomorrow. Good night to all, see you tomorrow

A brethren in Christ,

I ask you to please explain yourself better. The last post you directed to me seemed like a jumbled mess..

I want to reiterate a point....

You believe that faith alone saves

John 12:24-43 - Nevertheless many even of the rulers BELIEVED in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

James 2:19 - You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

So I have a question for you. How can you possibly harmonize your beliefs with these scriptures? John 12:42 says "For Many of the Rulers BELIEVED in him." How can you get around it? The rulers believed! They had Faith! BUT THEY WERE NOT SAVED!!!!!!!!!! James 2:19 tells us that "the demons also believe, and shudder." The demons believe; However, they are not saved!

Wow! what an overwhelming response to one question!

I find it interesting that many of you are quoting one verse here and one verse there, instead of looking at the entire section or even book.

You will find many verses discussing faith and many verses discussing believing our God singularly. You will also find many verses discussing baptism. So let's take a look at scripture shall we.

First find one book in the scripture that doesnt discuss salvation and baptism separately.
You won't find one !
Matthew chapter 28 th great commission.
John chapter 3
Acts chapters 1 and 2
Romans the entire book is dedicated to salvation.
I and II Corinthians.

They all discuss believing in the risen Lord Jesus and being saved by His grace.

I like using Christ's baptism as an example of our own, after all, he set the example.

Christ came the John and told Him to Baptize him,
when John baptized Christ, a dove ascended upon Christ. ect...
Then Christ began His ministry.
It was not until after the disciples and the apostles were baptized that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So when Christ was Baptized he then received the blessings of His Father in Heaven.
( Make sense so far ).

Let's try another approach Book of Romans )
1) We are saved by grace.
2) We are justified by our Faith
3) If we are faithful then we shall be baptized.

Book of John
1) If you love me you will obey all my commands.
2) John chapter 3, a man cannot be saved unless he is born of water and the spirit. So when we are baotized by water, we receive the holy spirit.

Matthew 28
therefore go making disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So when you discuss believing in God, check the entire book for other scripture references and not just one here and there. Context is very important.

May God guide you and give us direction.
Amen.
Edouard.

Baptism was around before Jesus' incarnation. Jewish proselytes were historically baptized in order to show their new membership in the community. It also demonstrated that their sins were cleansed through repentance. This is demonstrated in John the Baptist's ministry. Baptism was a formal, public way of repenting of sins and joining God in good standing.

As Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-9, there is no work that can be done to earn salvation. It is only through faith, which is simply the work of God.

Although baptism is related to faith, it is the act of an already present faith. So to put baptism in perspective you must harmonize the ideas of grace with the mandate of baptism. What's left is the idea that baptism is necessary for one already converted to exercise obedience to Christ, much in the same way that circumcision was exercised in Old Testament times as a symbol of that covenant relationship between God and His people.

Edouard,

You said "Wow! what an overwhelming response to one question!"

I think my point was short, but to the point. It is right on topic, and I think it raises a very good question... John 12:42-43 says that the rulers "believed." How could it get more clear than that. If we are saved by "faith only," then why weren't the rulers saved? Same as the demons in James 2:19.

Suzie,

Paul states in Eph. 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

you said "there is no work that can be done to earn salvation. It is only through faith, which is simply the work of God."

I've been reading Eph. 2:8-9 over and over, and I'm just having problems finding where it says "it is only through faith" or that "faith alone" will save us.

James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, see also "faith without works" is DEAD

Maybe you should take it to prayer florida.

aggie, the church of Christ is a sect in itself , one that holds that baptism is essential to salvation. You however are not alone, The Catholics also believe this.

Suzie,

Telling Florida College to take it prayer is certainly a good idea for anyone, but it seemed to serve as an avoidance tactic in your post.

Florida just wants to know how Eph. 2: 8-9 teaches "faith alone" saves. We all admit that we are saved through faith, but what is your evidence for faith alone?

You continue to offer unsupported opinions instead of discussing scripture.