Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

vanshan · Jul 1, 2004

We could talk about dozens of "what ifs", and I do think that God being full of love for us may save those who honestly cannot be baptized or don't get baptized due to some circumstance, like the thief on the cross, but that would be the exception.

We are told to be baptized. Jesus, and cousin Saint John the Baptist and Forerunner, set the sacrament of baptism in place as a work of salvation to aid mankind. Like communion it is essential and there's not really any grounds to throw it out now. These sacraments do aid our salvation by helping us overcome sin and death by God's power working in us.

Basil

Benedicta00 · Jul 1, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
Maybe i misunderstood then.

If i don't get baptized EVER, am i saved?

How would I know? I dont know, I'm not to judge you, I can not read your heart. It is for God to know and only Him; your salvation is between you and Him, not me, you and Him. Do you have access to it and refuse to believe in what God has commanded? I have no idea how He will judge you but form me, I would not test him like that. I would believe in His word and do what he says.

vanshan · Jul 1, 2004

God provides salvation and uses these sacraments, or sacred things, to help us receive salvation, by giving us grace to overcome sin and death. So if you reject those things which God has given you, are you going to be saved? It's really a free-will decision we make.

Benedicta00 · Jul 1, 2004

Paul,

Maybe i misunderstood then.

If i don't get baptized EVER, am i saved?

Still the same old straw- the water is not what saves.

vanshan · Jul 1, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Paul,

Still the same old straw- the water is not what saves.

Let's just say the faucet in your house alone cannot save you, but when God sanctifies and uses water in baptism it's more than just getting wet . . . it's the beginning of our salvation. This is what the One Church, Christ's body always taught. Jump in , be baptized in water.

@@Paul@@ · Jul 1, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Paul,

Still the same old straw- the water is not what saves.

It's a yes or no question, not a straw... i know water does not save me... obviously..

But if i don't GET baptized,, am i still going to be saved?

@@Paul@@ · Jul 1, 2004

Joe Orwell Fuss said:
I have to say Paul, your argument is taking a different form, but it's still interesting. I think I should take a break from the argument for awhile and study what has been posted. That way I can jump back in and debate. I still have a hard time following where you're going with your argument, but I suppose I just need to really try to solidify it. I sometimes think you're making it more complicated than it really should be. Perhaps time and studying will prove me wrong.

In the meantime, I think Ainesis is doing a wonderful job at giving you a run for your money (better than I can in fact!). Best of luck until I return to this thread Ainesis. God bless everyone.

I would like to say it's not a NEW form, Just an evolving one... I there is NO way this topic can be covered by simply reading "repent and be baptized"... we need to know what they were repenting OF (Jewish people forsaking God) and WHY they were being baptized (symbol TO God of repentance)..... it's not an easy study and I appreciate that you would take this to heart, really try to understand where i'm coming from... It means a lot and shows you have great character.----- I will keep you in my prayers.

I've always said water baptism is a Jewish rite/ritual... even in the acts. http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8359148&postcount=22

--------and that's really all i am saying now.

Benedicta00 · Jul 1, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
It's a yes or no question, not a straw... i know water does not save me... obviously..

But if i don't GET baptized,, am i still going to be saved?

Grace is given through water baptism, baptism of desire and baptism of blood. I have no idea how God sees you. I dont know if you are saved or not. I can say I do not believe that anyone of us are saved in the OSAS, eternal security sense, but are you justified to be saved in the end? I have no clue. Have you been baptized with water, for the remission of sins in he name of the Father Son and the Holy Spirit? Did the minister or pastor do what the universal Church intends to do when he baptized you? That would be for the remission of sins and not just a outward sign.

@@Paul@@ · Jul 1, 2004

To refer to the OP.

If baptism is neccessary for salvation, one must be baptized to be saved.

nec·es·sar·y [néssə sèrree]
1. required: needed, essential, or required by authority or convention

So obviously, not being baptized means you will not be saved if baptism is needed, essential and required by authority.

So, is water baptism neccessary for salvation? Yes or NO.... Anyone?

Michael.C.Hadley · Jul 1, 2004

um you didn't follow the rules i need blibical proof

Benedicta00 · Jul 1, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
To refer to the OP.

If baptism is neccessary for salvation, one must be baptized to be saved.

nec·es·sar·y [néssə sèrree]
1. required: needed, essential, or required by authority or convention
So obviously, not being baptized means you will not be saved if baptism is needed, essential and required by authority.

So, is water baptism neccessary for salvation? Yes or NO.... Anyone?

Sigh

What IS necessary for salvation is being born again which does mean to have original sin removed; it does not mean anything else. How does one have original sin removed? You can do it by having faith because faith is a gift from God and we are incapable of this in a unregenerate state. If you have faith on your own and think that removes Adams sin, you are earning and this gift is free.

God grants, confers, impart, ect Christs merits on us in the mystery of baptism. The ordinary way to receive this and the way God did command is water baptism.

Water baptism is not necessary in the absolute sense but it is the way God willed for us to be born again. He created, ordained and said this is the sacrament He wishes to work through but this sacrament does not bind HIM, BUT it DOES bind us.

He can save through baptism of desire or blood but that is not for anyone to choose for themselves, if the need water baptism or not. If you know you have the knowledge and access to this then you are bound by this so for those who will stand before God with no excuse for not being baptized with water, for the remission of sins, in the name of the trinity, then I would say that for them it is necessary in the absolute sense.

Paddy the Irishman · Jul 2, 2004

salvation means to be saved from something.

how does being baptised save you?

baptism is more an act of obedience, than it being necessary for salvation.

peace

Tab · Jul 2, 2004

Baptism is like the Lord's supper - it's something that follows salvation. Also, the word "baptism" as found in the Holy Bible (that's the KJV) is NOT limited to water. If you do a study on the word, I believe you will find about seven applications, including a baptism of fire - ouch!

The Holy Bible does seem to imply that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, but there are far too many other verses on the subject of salvation that don't even hint at water baptism. By grace are you saved through FAITH ... not of works. And certainly don't overlook the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which, I believe, is what the Holy Bible has referrence to. Once a person responds to God's beckoning and turns to Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit take up residence within that person. I hope this helps.

Tab

vanshan · Jul 2, 2004

Is anyone bold enough to say directly that they reject Christ's command to be baptized unto the remission of sins? Is there any reason we should refuse? We can question what exactly baptism achieves, if we must, but can we question the biblical evidence that this is what Christ wanted for everyone who comes to Him? In Acts we see the apostles going to preach the gospel and baptizing all who believe.

Benedicta00 · Jul 2, 2004

Paddy the Irishman said:
salvation means to be saved from something.

how does being baptised save you?

baptism is more an act of obedience, than it being necessary for salvation.

peace

Salvation and redemption are not the same thing. Baptism redeems us from being born to a race that is cut off from God. Salvation is when we are saved, as in, in heaven already. That is when a person is truly saved.

No one can be saved, unless he/she has been reconciled back to God first and we can not earn that by having faith. Faith does not redeem us; it saves us (in the end if we persevere as Christians) but it does not redeem us from being born dead in our trespasses, only the blood of Christ can, faith can not. This is what being saved by grace means.

And the bible never says, not even once that baptism is a act of obedience. It says that it NOW SAVES YOU.

Nickolai · Jul 2, 2004

Tab said:
Baptism is like the Lord's supper - it's something that follows salvation. Also, the word "baptism" as found in the Holy Bible (that's the KJV) is NOT limited to water. If you do a study on the word, I believe you will find about seven applications, including a baptism of fire - ouch!

If you study the actual word written down by the Apostles it means baptism in water. Baptizo literaly means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge

The Holy Bible does seem to imply that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, but there are far too many other verses on the subject of salvation that don't even hint at water baptism. By grace are you saved through FAITH ... not of works. And certainly don't overlook the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which, I believe, is what the Holy Bible has referrence to. Once a person responds to God's beckoning and turns to Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit take up residence within that person. I hope this helps.

You wanna give me a reason that we shouldn't be baptised. Christ told us to do so, and you seem to be questioning wether he is right or not.

Benedicta00 · Jul 2, 2004

Tab said:
Baptism is like the Lord's supper - it's something that follows salvation. Also, the word "baptism" as found in the Holy Bible (that's the KJV) is NOT limited to water. If you do a study on the word, I believe you will find about seven applications, including a baptism of fire - ouch!

No one said here that it was limited to water but are you the one who is to decided if you should be baptized with water or not? If God has given you the fullness of His revelation, then it is necessary for you, but it may not be for those who do not have the fullness of His revelation by no fault if their own.

The Holy Bible does seem to imply that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, but there are far too many other verses on the subject of salvation that don't even hint at water baptism.

That is because baptism redeems us from being born to a world cut off from grace, it does not "save" us. It gives us grace to be saved.

By grace are you saved through FAITH ... not of works.

Exactly. By the grace of Christ- not of your own choice to have faith, that would be a work. His merits are given to you in baptism and that includes faith- it is a gift. In a dead state of being you can not have faith, its a gift, how are you going to have faith if you are not redeemed first and given grace? How are you going to be saved if you are not redeemed?

and you are regenerated then by your perseving in faith you are saved.

That is absolute false. How are you going to have faith if you are in a dead state of soul? You can not redeem yourself. You have it backwards. You must be regenerated first if you will be saved. Baptism (grace) redeemes you. Faith (the gift of grace) is what will save you in the end.

And certainly don't overlook the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which, I believe, is what the Holy Bible has referrence to. Once a person responds to God's beckoning and turns to Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit take up residence within that person. I hope this helps.

Again this is false. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, it does not give grace. It is the manifestation of what was already given to a person in baptism and conformation, it is the manifestation of the gifts of the holy spirit, as God sees fit to manifest them. It is what happened at Pentecost, the gifts of Holy Spirit was manifested and the Church was born. It has nothing to do with being regenerated.

@@Paul@@ · Jul 2, 2004

vanshan said:
Is anyone bold enough to say directly that they reject Christ's command to be baptized unto the remission of sins? Is there any reason we should refuse? We can question what exactly baptism achieves, if we must, but can we question the biblical evidence that this is what Christ wanted for everyone who comes to Him? In Acts we see the apostles going to preach the gospel and baptizing all who believe.

I will..

But then again... He was not talking to me, so i'm not really rejecting it...

no way,, they baptized believers?

@@Paul@@ · Jul 2, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Exactly. By the grace of Christ- not of your own choice to have faith, that would be a work. His merits are given to you in baptism and that includes faith- it is a gift. In a dead state of being you can not have faith, its a gift, how are you going to have faith if you are not redeemed first and given grace? How are you going to be saved if you are not redeemed?

I may have missunderstood your explaination here,, but your reasoning seems to contradict scripture.

Being given God's grace while NOT being "redeemed" is grace. Which is given through FAITH.

Eph 2:5 KJV
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

.....EVEN when we were dead in our sins (dead state of being), God raised us up and quickened us together with Christ: this process Paul then says is "by GRACE ye are saved". That is grace, giving us something we do not deserve. Mercy on the other had is not giving us what we deserve.

Eph 2:6 KJV
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

...AND even being dead in SIN were we raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

...Everything Paul just described is GRACE (being saved while we are dead in sin) which we receive through FAITH.

This is a two step process. GRACE + FAITH... It's not REDEMPTION by water baptism, GRACE and then FAITH....

How am I going to be saved if I am not redeemed?
Redemption means to buy back... To make acceptable... I was made acceptable by the blood of Jesus Christ. - every person walking this earth was bought back by the Blood of Calvary. All we need to do now is approach the throne of grace... through faith.

Lets get a little exegetic....

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

We are given the free gift of the grace of God through... ready... by faith... That faith is "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus".

vanshan · Jul 2, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
I will..

But then again... He was not talking to me, so i'm not really rejecting it...

no way,, they baptized believers?

You don't think He intends this for your too? Christ would not leave you out, he loves you as much as anyone. He was definetly speaking to you also.

Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

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