Baptism? Necessary for Salvation?

[Michael.C.Hadley]

Baptism the bible talks about,preachers talk about it. But is it really necessary for salvation?Post your findings here.
:rules:
BUT REMEMBER I WANT BIBLICAL SUPPORT ONLY!!!!!
NO OPINONS,NO GUESSES,ONLY SOMETHING STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE.

 

[Nickolai]

All of these are KJV

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

(According to this baptism rimisses sins.)

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

(This says that people are recieved into the Church through Baptism)

Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

(Peter wouldn't command anyone to be baptized if it wasn't important.)

In addition to that every case of someone believing in the Apostles message was accompanied by a baptism.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Baptism the bible talks about,preachers talk about it. But is it really necessary for salvation?Post your findings here.

I don't think this topic has even been covered.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

Here Paul says there is ONE Baptism with this ONE Hope of OUR Calling.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

So what does this mean?
Buried with Him in the ONE BAPTISM our old self dies.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;​

The new man is risen and "quickened" together with Christ.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:​

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

And the kicker.

Rom 6:4-10 KJV
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
(9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
(10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.​

Although water baptism is not neccesary for salvation,,, Death of the old man is and it's the "circumcision made without hands".

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

ya but i'm talking physical baptism with water

 

[PaladinValer]

St. John chapter 3 should be sufficient

 

[@@Paul@@]

ya but i'm talking physical baptism with water

That's why i said no..

 

[daveleau]

Spiritual baptism is the one baptism. Water baptism is not necessary.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 10:47 (ASV) Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

I used ASV here, because the KJV is difficult to understand.

Christians often assume that any time baptism is used in the Bible it means water baptism. We believe in one baptism, but the Bible routinely talks of baptism of the Holy Spirit separately from water baptism. Which is the one that is neccessary? The Scriptures, apart from John 3:5, tells us that baptism is neccessary, but never quanitifies it as a water baptism. Ezekiel 16:9 talks of God washing us with water. Could this be a reference that explains John 3:5? I think it is very possible, especially since water baptism is said to be required once, just as baptism of the Holy Spirit is said to be required for Salvation.

A frequently sited passage is found in Luke:
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
The thief was not baptized, yet he was saved. I have heard some say that this man died before Jesus, and was not under the period of Grace yet. But, the entire Book shows us that grace is the basis for salvation from the very beginning (no one ever successfully fulfilled the Law other than Jesus, so they were saved by grace). And, this man died after Jesus because he had to have his legs borken and Jesus did not.

Do I think we should not be baptized in water? Of course not! We should be. The Bible is full of examples of water baptism as an outward display of our rebirth.

 

[christian-only]

John 3:5 and 1 Peter 1:3 and 1st Peter 3:21 together prove that baptism is necessary to salvation. 1 Peter 1:3 says that God "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and 1 Peter 3:21 says "baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and in John 3:5 Jesus says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Now, when understood together they read thus "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, [that is by] baptism [which] doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, then [he] hath [not been] begotten again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [and therefore] he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Now, as for the thief on the cross, Jesus told him AUDIBLY that he was saved. Now, if Jesus comes to you personally and tells you AUDIBLY "today you will be with me in Paradise" then you don't need to be baptized. But aside from that, you MUST be baptized if you wish to be saved. Paul himself, after having seen Jesus on the road to Damascus went into the city and prayed for THREE WHOLE DAYS (Acts 9) but on the third day God sent Ananias, who asked Paul (Acts 22:16) "What are you waiting for?" and then commanded him "Arise, and be baptized, and have thy sins washed away, calling on the name of the Lord." Paul had been a believer for THREE DAYS and had been PRAYING, but his sins were not yet forgiven. His sins covered him like scarlet. He was still filthy, odious, and abominable before God - that is, until baptism, in which his sins were washed away by the blood of Christ as Ananias lowered him into the watery grave of baptism, by which he was planted into the likeness of Chirst's death so that he could also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Rom 6:5

 

[daveleau]

Yes, but is the baptism spoken about in your references of the holy Spirit or of water? Both are talked about separately in Scripture and this is what I am struggling with.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Jesus once asked a tough question: “Johns Baptism – where did it come from? Was it from heaven or from men? It was a tough question that forced the Pharisees, and those around them, to look at what was really being taught.

The same applies to any religious question at hand. Is this from man, or is it from God?

There is truth out there, and it lies in the Bible. We can not sit around discussing what we think is best, for that is God’s job (and he does it best!). Are we going to do what God wants or what we want. The Apostle Paul once wrote that we as Christians must not go beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6).

In Acts 8:36 we see Phillip teaching the eunuch the Word. As they went on there way the eunuch asks Phillip “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?”(NIV). The diligent student will then read on to see that Phillip and the eunuch went down the water and Phillip baptized him.

To really get to the roots of the problems, it is necessary for a student to go back to the Greek. The word baptism, which is used in our bibles today, comes from the Greek word baptizmo which means to immerse, plunge, or sink (see William Arndt & F.W. Gingrich, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Chicago: University of Chicago, 1967, p. 131)

As with the already given scripture, e.g. Mark 16:16, Acts 2: 38, and various others, baptism is necessary for salvation. As well, as stated before, there is one baptism, which is by immersion in water.

When you talk about other forms of baptisms, like sprinkling, infant, or pouring, where does it come from? From man or from God? Your answer will be simple.

 

[master_alterserver]

this is so wrong


you can´t ask for something and say biblical support only...what about tradition? the bible calls for scripture and tradition

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

Well, what is tradition? Let me ask you this: What if a woman has a father that was a good man, lived a moral life, but never followed the Gospel? Her and her family all believe that good people go to Heaven. The Bible does not say "He who is a good man shall go to heaven." There are certain prerequisites that we as Christians must meet before being allowed into Heaven.

Now, to argue that tradition usurps the Bible is quite dangerous. As 1 Corinthians 4:6 states : “Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.””

Every student must realize that the Bible is our handbook through and through, and must be followed, for it is Gods Word for us. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states: “All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

 

[@@Paul@@]

As with the already given scripture, e.g. Mark 16:16, Acts 2: 38, and various others, baptism is necessary for salvation. As well, as stated before, there is one baptism, which is by immersion in water.

When you talk about other forms of baptisms, like sprinkling, infant, or pouring, where does it come from? From man or from God? Your answer will be simple.

The ONE baptism mentioned by Paul in Ephesians is in no way refering to water.

Take this for instance.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
*** 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;​

Being "born of water and of Spirit" is the same process buy which we are "washed" and "renewed" BY the Holy Ghost...

It's a proven fact that there was MANY Baptisms going around durning the Acts period, for starters.
Baptism BY the Holy Ghost
Baptism WITH the Holy Ghost
Baptism WITH Fire
Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. BY John the Baptist
Baptism - Traditional Water

What "baptism" was Jesus talking about here...

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.​

............It was Death.

What about this one?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

Are not all Three involed during the process of salvation when the Old man is buried with Christ, then the New man is risen and quickened to together with Christ??

Paul makes this process pretty clear.
Rom 6:4-10 KJV
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Wanna know why water baptism was necessary during the Acts? For starters...

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.​

To "wash" was a Levitical tradition of cleansing. When the High Priest made the sacrafice for the Nation, they then carried the body OUT of the city to burn it... those that touched the body had to cleanse themselves to be clean by a ritual washing...

It was symbolic of Israel being forgiven and cleansed from "touching" the sacrafice....

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.​

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

All baptisms mentioned, in passages that relate to salvation, are the same. Matt. 28: 19 had human administrators. Christ told them to go out into the world and baptize in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Apostles could not baptize in the Spirit, only Christ could do that ( Mt. 3:11). One is forced to see that the baptism mentioned is water baptism, not Spirit baptism.

In Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 the verses make it clear that the baptism involves the immersion in “something” and “being raised” from that something. Makes perfect sense if water baptism is involved.

However, if it was by Spirit baptism, it would imply that one is buried in the Spirit, and thusly “raised from the Spirit.” Following this logic, one would see that the new convert would not have the spirit, and therefore would not be God’s (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6). This view is obviously wrong. It demonstrates that the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 were not by the Holy Spirit, and conclusively the baptism must be of water.

Water is specifically associated with baptism in 1 Peter 3:21. It is shown that if the passages a Water is specifically associated with baptism in 1 Peter 3:21. If the allusion here, then, is to water baptism, and yet 1 Peter 3:21 refers to the same sort of baptism as the other passages cited, then clearly they speak of water baptism as well.

There is only one passage that comes close to Spirit baptism, and that is 1 Corinthians 12:13. However, upon closer examination of this passage, nowhere do you see it advocating Spirit baptism.

As was stated before, the baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 puts us in “one body” which is the Church (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24). The church is identified as the kingdom of Christ (Mt. 16:18-19). So, baptism introduces us into the Lord’s kingdom.

@@Paul@@ also mentions John 3:5 and Ephesians 5:6. In John we see that it is through the birth of “water” we enter into that kingdom. As well, in Ephesians, it is the “washing of water.”

The faithful student will often notice words used again and again, which form a pattern in the Bible. A certain meaning will become attached to these words because they have a commonly understood significance. The normal meaning is attached to the word unless context suggests that it has taken on a special significance (i.e., a figurative sense).

The term “baptize,” and its cognate “baptism,” occur together about 100 times in the New Testament. A consideration of these passages will reveal that the word may, on occasion, take on a figurative application (cf. Mt. 3:11; Lk. 12:50; Acts 1:5). Unless, though, there is clear contextual evidence that a symbolic sense has been employed, the conclusion must be that the common usage (an immersion in water) is in view.

There is no reason to conclude otherwise that the passages Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12, and 1 Peter 3:21 pertain to baptisms other than that of water baptism.

In conclusion, the use of “water” baptism in the book of Acts were not examples of Jewish “ritualism.”

The indisputable fact is that the Mosaic law had been abolished by the cross (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), and no Jewish rite was henceforth tolerated in connection with the salvation process (cf. Acts 15:1; Gal. 5:2-4).

 

[@@Paul@@]

However, if it was by Spirit baptism, it would imply that one is buried in the Spirit, and thusly “raised from the Spirit.” Following this logic, one would see that the new convert would not have the spirit, and therefore would not be God’s (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6). This view is obviously wrong. It demonstrates that the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 were not by the Holy Spirit, and conclusively the baptism must be of water.

That's absurd. You missed the point in Romans and Galations. The Spirit doing the work is the Holy Spirit. The "Spirit" buries the OLD man, and thus He also Raises the new man. It is through this baptism which we attian the Holy Spirit, thus being the difference between being baptized BY something and WITH something... This is the process by which we are "sealed" Rom 8:9 and Gal 4:6 and...
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

When does this happen?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

At salvation, when we believe we are..

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​

........there is nothing else we need. Water Baptism is a...

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

I'm only talking about the necessity of baptism as it pertains to salvation... Water Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change....

The indisputable fact is that the Mosaic law had been abolished by the cross (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), and no Jewish rite was henceforth tolerated in connection with the salvation process (cf. Acts 15:1; Gal. 5:2-4).

Yes and it says BY the cross as to WHY is was made possible, it does not say AT the cross. The water baptism in Acts was not apart of salvation... So no jewish "rite" was in connection with the salvation process.

It was symbolic of them being absolved from the blood of their Messiah. That's why Jews were baptised BEFORE and the Gentiles were baptised AFTER.

 

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

I'm only talking about the necessity of baptism as it pertains to salvation... Water Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change....

So what you are saying is that baptism is not necessary for salvation? Then why, in Acts 8:36-39, did Phillip take the eunuch down to the water to baptize him? I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think it was because it was hot and they wanted to cool off. Phillip came to the eunuch and preached Jesus, and to preach Jesus is to preach baptism by immersion of water, as given by inspired example in the book of Acts. Why include it if it wasn't necessary(2 Tim 3:16-17)?

 

[@@Paul@@]

So what you are saying is that baptism is not necessary for salvation? Then why, in Acts 8:36-39, did Phillip take the eunuch down to the water to baptize him? I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think it was because it was hot and they wanted to cool off. Phillip came to the eunuch and preached Jesus, and to preach Jesus is to preach baptism by immersion of water, as given by inspired example in the book of Acts. Why include it if it wasn't necessary(2 Tim 3:16-17)?

yes but He believed everything you needed to inorder to be saved FIRST>then he was baptized (depending on which bible you read ).

I'm not saying baptism is bad and don't do it... I think God wanted us to do it, as a step of obedience.. Anyone can believe, confess and be saved. not everyone is willing to take the first step and walk with God.

Inspired scripture shows we need to be saved by accepting grace and then begin our walk of sanctification... the first step (i believe) is water baptism.

But Paul says there is only ONE baptism today, i think that's clearly putting off the old man and putting on the new man (which was referred to as baptism of death). There can't be Two if the inspired scripture says One.

Again, all gentiles were baptized in water AFTER they were saved (a baptism unto death). Apart from salvation, water baptism is a good thing.

 

[christian-only]

yes but He believed everything you needed to inorder to be saved FIRST>then he was baptized (depending on which bible you read ).

You're making stuff up. No Bible says that the eunuch was saved before baptism. Indeed, there is only one Bible anyway.

 

[@@Paul@@]

You're making stuff up. No Bible says that the eunuch was saved before baptism. Indeed, there is only one Bible anyway.

Making stuff up?? :o

I can not even begin to quote all the verses which say "Believe and HAVE everlasting life".... "Believe and you WILL be saved" ... "Believe and confess" .......... etc,, etc,, And what did the eunch do?? He believed..and confessed...... On what??

I kinda figured you would not see it the same way i see it,,,, reading your signature and all..

 

[Benedicta00]

Baptism the bible talks about,preachers talk about it. But is it really necessary for salvation?Post your findings here.
:rules:
BUT REMEMBER I WANT BIBLICAL SUPPORT ONLY!!!!!
NO OPINONS,NO GUESSES,ONLY SOMETHING STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE.

But that is a false premise because the bible itself does not say it needs to be straight from the bible.