Baptism is a work.

[Strong in Him]

It is unfortunate that you disapprove,

I don't disapprove of your experience; I asked you a question.
Are you saying that anyone who doesn't see things the way as you do is not a Christian?

but isn't this what I was talking about? And here it is happening again.

Have you ever asked yourself; "if so many Christians disagree with me, maybe it's my understanding that's at fault?" Or do you just judge us all to be non believers?

Becoming a Christian doesn't happen any more slowly than a person is released from prison slowly.

Yes, it does - on both counts.
If someone is in prison for murder, they don't get released over night; even if the say "sorry". They will probably (in my country, anyway) be held in a high security prison, known as Category A, for the first part of their sentence. If they keep their heads down, do their time, obey the rules and so on, they will gradually be moved to Cat B and Cat C prisons as they are deemed to be less of a threat, or as their sentence comes to an end. It may sound straightforward, but the paperwork involved means that the process of transfer may take months, After Cat C, the next prison is Cat D, which is more like an open prison; prisoners go on day release, may start voluntary work or other things to prepare them for their release back into the community. When they are released, they may still have a probation officer; some may have to wear an electronic tag and so on. If a person is released early, they may be told they can spend the remainder of their sentence on probation - meaning they have to keep their noses completely clean or they will end up back inside.

A decision to accept Christ may take an instant.
Understanding who Christ is, why a person needs him/can't save themselves and being in a position to receive his love, may take far longer.
A non believer may hear the words "God loves you" - but their only experience of love may be of a parent who beats or abuses them. So that may not understand, or think that God only wants something from them.
A non believer may hear "God loves you", but they don't love themselves, so they don't believe it. That was my story.
A non believer may hear "God loves you", but have suffered illness/bereavement/unemployment/war/poverty in their lifetime and thinks "if this is how he shows his love for me, I don't want it." They may only realise some years later that God's love does not depend on them, their works, their feelings or experiences.

I know almost nothing about you, but if you were baptised by full immersion at the age of 12, there must have been a reason for that decision; some kind of church affiliation and knowledge, or understanding, of God. Therefore, that was God at work.
I've no idea what happened to you after that - but God did not abandon you and only start loving you again when you had that experience in the desert. Jesus himself says that even pagans only love people who will love them back; God is not like that.

Do you understand the Story of God that spans from Genesis to Revelation? I mean, do you actually understand the Bible in a timeline, chronological order?

Do you?
Do you know that the books of the Bible are not in the order in which things happened?
What's that got to do with when a person becomes a Christian?

 

[Dan Perez]

You mentioned Abraham in your opening post. However, you didn't explain why Abraham, who is our "Father of Faith," could hold such a title if water baptism hadn't yet been instituted. While Abraham held true Faith, so did Job, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Samuel, and David to mention a few.

What do you think is the basis for these people being Pure, Righteous, Holy, and Blameless? Water baptism was yet to be instituted into the Christian Faith, so how could these people hold a status of Purity? We should keep in mind that there is one God, one Faith, and one Baptism. Therefore, the Faith that Abraham had is the same Faith we are to have today. He is our model of Faith, though Christ hadn't lived, died, and resurrected from the dead.

What do you think of what has been offered above?

It should be obvious , that in the BODY OF CHRIST there is NO WATER BAPTISM , PERIOD !!

You wrote bout Col 2:12 and reads , Having been buried together with Him in the ( BAPTISM //is not water Baptism ) as that Greek word is really BAPTISMA and check the Greek text and SEE !!

In the Greek text anyone will see these Greek word , like BAPTISZO , BAPTISMOS , BAPTISTES , WASHING , SPRINKLING and Israel NEVER NEW what water BAPTISM really meant until John the BAPTISMA // means John the BAPTIZER came on the scene in John 1:31 !!

This means from John the BAPTIZER // BAPTISMA WATER BAPTISM was never seen .

This than means that BAPTISM by it self has many meaning , like , PLACING , PUTTING some thing INTO something .


So how will translate 1 Cor 10:2 where all were BAPTIZED // BAPTIZO unto Moses , in the CLOUD , and in the SEA ??

So how were thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

How were they BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?

How were they BAPTIZED unto the SEA ?

And what is the significance of what thw CLOUD and the SEA , mean ?

And if BAPTISM is a WORK , why was Jesus WATER BAPTIZED ?

dan p

 

[Oneofhope]

I don't disapprove of your experience; I asked you a question.
Are you saying that anyone who doesn't see things the way as you do is not a Christian?

Have you ever asked yourself; "if so many Christians disagree with me, maybe it's my understanding that's at fault?" Or do you just judge us all to be non believers?


Yes, it does - on both counts.
If someone is in prison for murder, they don't get released over night; even if the say "sorry". They will probably (in my country, anyway) be held in a high security prison, known as Category A, for the first part of their sentence. If they keep their heads down, do their time, obey the rules and so on, they will gradually be moved to Cat B and Cat C prisons as they are deemed to be less of a threat, or as their sentence comes to an end. It may sound straightforward, but the paperwork involved means that the process of transfer may take months, After Cat C, the next prison is Cat D, which is more like an open prison; prisoners go on day release, may start voluntary work or other things to prepare them for their release back into the community. When they are released, they may still have a probation officer; some may have to wear an electronic tag and so on. If a person is released early, they may be told they can spend the remainder of their sentence on probation - meaning they have to keep their noses completely clean or they will end up back inside.

A decision to accept Christ may take an instant.
Understanding who Christ is, why a person needs him/can't save themselves and being in a position to receive his love, may take far longer.
A non believer may hear the words "God loves you" - but their only experience of love may be of a parent who beats or abuses them. So that may not understand, or think that God only wants something from them.
A non believer may hear "God loves you", but they don't love themselves, so they don't believe it. That was my story.
A non believer may hear "God loves you", but have suffered illness/bereavement/unemployment/war/poverty in their lifetime and thinks "if this is how he shows his love for me, I don't want it." They may only realise some years later that God's love does not depend on them, their works, their feelings or experiences.

I know almost nothing about you, but if you were baptised by full immersion at the age of 12, there must have been a reason for that decision; some kind of church affiliation and knowledge, or understanding, of God. Therefore, that was God at work.
I've no idea what happened to you after that - but God did not abandon you and only start loving you again when you had that experience in the desert. Jesus himself says that even pagans only love people who will love them back; God is not like that.

Do you?
Do you know that the books of the Bible are not in the order in which things happened?
What's that got to do with when a person becomes a Christian?

Hello,

I am going to walk away from this conversation because it is clear that the things I say are not making sense. I mean no disrespect, but I haven't the time to go into hours of typing that could take 5 minutes to deal with over the phone.

Spiritual Circumcision. Study that doctrine beyond imagination and save yourself much wasted time. You might thank me one day.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hello,

I am going to walk away from this conversation because it is clear that the things I say are not making sense. I mean no disrespect, but I haven't the time to go into hours of typing that could take 5 minutes to deal with over the phone.

Spiritual Circumcision. Study that doctrine beyond imagination and save yourself much wasted time. You might thank me one day.

Well it's your choice not to answer my questions, my statements and, maybe, to help me to understand.
Maybe you can't answer them? Maybe you find that they are challenging your beliefs and you don't want to answer them.
So be it.
I think you're wrong in what you say, and you're obviously prepared to let me carry on thinking that you're wrong.
I would never say that you are not a Christian though.

 

[Oneofhope]

It should be obvious , that in the BODY OF CHRIST there is NO WATER BAPTISM , PERIOD !!

Agreed. If we understand the core of the Story of God, the Old Testament testifies to a remarkable relationship with Powerful men of God and water. But the Old Testament doesn't place an emphasis on the Purpose of water baptism, the Work of water baptism, or the Holy Effect of water baptism. In looking at it this way, one would likely admit that it is difficult to build an Old Testament theology from the Old Testament that would teach the necessity of water baptism for a specific Holy Effect. Again, what is the Purpose, Work, and Effect of water baptism as described in the Old Testament? I don't think I have the Scripture to meet that challenge myself. I don't see how I could teach a person from the Old Testament that water baptism will one day provide a Spiritual Effect that cannot be obtained in any other way. I could never teach a person that they cannot be saved if they cannot be baptized.

 

[Oneofhope]

Well it's your choice not to answer my questions

I don't mind answering questions. But I can see that the things I say won't sit well, and I have no desire to enter into any form of conversation that even hints at being aggressive. Thank you, though.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't mind answering questions. But I can see that the things I say won't sit well, and I have no desire to enter into any form of conversation that even hints at being aggressive. Thank you, though.

I've no intention of being aggressive.
I would like to know if you believe that people who do not see things the way you do and/or share your experience of conversion, are Christians?
I will say, straight up, that if you say "yes, that is my belief" - you're wrong. But I wanted to be clear about what you were saying before taking the conversation any further.

Then again, if you believe I'm wrong and I believe you're wrong, maybe there would be no point in taking it any further

 

[ARBITER01]

Water baptism is a work of faith. Water baptism is an outward ritual that a Christian will do at some point in their life that signifies the inward change when they believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:-14, and they call upon the Lord Jesus (seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him) (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14).

That is correct.

There are many steps in the Christian faith, water immersion is the second one, with the filling of The Holy Spirit being the third, and the anointing upon our heads by The Father being the fourth, and the resting upon of The Holy Spirit in power being the fifth. There could be more with GOD, who knows?

We have ourselves water immersed because that is what Jesus did to fulfill all righteousness,.... we do His works that He did, just like He said over in John,...

John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

We follow His example, just like we follow Abrahams example of faith by giving a tenth of our earnings.

Water immersion is a work/step of faith, one that follows our Spiritual immersion of being born again.

 

[Oneofhope]

I would like to know if you believe that people who do not see things the way you do and/or share your experience of conversion, are Christians?

No. I do not believe that. I do, however, continue to wait to find people who can convey thoughts and ideas without creating some form of division.

 

[Strong in Him]

No. I do not believe that. I do, however, continue to wait to find people who can convey thoughts and ideas without creating some form of division.

People will always disagree. The important thing is, how we handle those disagreements.
Do we spend our time determined to prove that we are right to think as we do, and that others will only be happy if they come round to our way of thinking?
Are we able to have a reasonable, level discussion and say "I don't agree with you, but I now understand your views and respect that they are important to you"?
Can we agree to disagree and walk away - even if it means that the other person thinks we are wrong, deluded or whatever?

 

[Oneofhope]

There are many steps in the Christian faith, water immersion is the second one, with the filling of The Holy Spirit being the third, and the anointing upon our heads by The Father being the fourth, and the resting upon of The Holy Spirit in power being the fifth. There could be more with GOD, who knows?

The primary steps of the Saving Plan of Christ are:

1) Circumcision of the heart -The removal of a person from the captivity of Satan
2) Repentance is granted - The Spiritual tool that moves a person to turn and change their sinful ways according to the Laws of the Spirit of Life
3) The Holy Spirit is granted - To lead, guide, instruct, and cause a person to change
4) Jesus's death and resurrection is the fourth "Work." It is this work that makes a person "Right" with God, should a person place their Faith in this work and believe in the Power that raised Jesus from the dead.

These are the Old Testament Works that are expounded upon in the Old Testament (where the Saving Plan of God has been kept hidden since the beginning), and they are confirmed in the New Testament.

 

[Oneofhope]

People will always disagree.

Right. Those who do not have the Spirit of God living within them will be divisive and argumentative. Those who do not have the Spirit of God within them do not know Christ or belong to Him . . . at all.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

 

[ARBITER01]

The primary steps of the Saving Plan of Christ are:

1) Circumcision of the heart -The removal of a person from the captivity of Satan
2) Repentance is granted - The Spiritual tool that moves a person to turn and change their sinful ways according to the Laws of the Spirit of Life
3) The Holy Spirit is granted - To lead, guide, instruct, and cause a person to change
4) Jesus's death and resurrection is the fourth "Work." It is this work that makes a person "Right" with God, should a person place their Faith in this work and believe in the Power that raised Jesus from the dead.

These are the Old Testament Works that are expounded upon in the Old Testament (where the Saving Plan of God has been kept hidden since the beginning), and they are confirmed in the New Testament.

You're talking about being born again. Everyone of those items you mentioned is covered when a person is Spiritually immersed ie born from above.

I'm not sure why you would attempt to break them down into further steps in our Christian walk when they are all instantaneously

done when the blood is applied.

 

[Oneofhope]

You're talking about being born again. Everyone of those items you mentioned is covered when a person is Spiritually immersed ie born from above.

Your conclusion is not the conclusion of the Bible. The Old Testament description of true Faith, the Faith of Abraham, does not include water baptism.

It is imperative that if a person wants to understand the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ, the Old Testament must be known.

 

[ARBITER01]

Your conclusion is not the conclusion of the Bible. The Old Testament description of true Faith, the Faith of Abraham, does not include water baptism.

It is imperative that if a person wants to understand the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ, the Old Testament must be known.

Sorry,... but we follow the example of Jesus, not Moses.

 

[Oneofhope]

Sorry,... but we follow the example of Jesus, not Moses.

Our New Testament tells us that all mentioned in Hebrews 11 are "examples of Faith." Yet you, a "Christian," refuse to follow their examples, examples that include Moses and Abraham.

Christian websites never cease to amaze me.

 

[ARBITER01]

Our New Testament tells us that all mentioned in Hebrews 11 are "examples of Faith." Yet you, a "Christian," refuse to follow their examples, examples that include Moses and Abraham.

Christian websites never cease to amaze me.

What "amazes me" is how your promoting a false gospel on here. Instead of promoting Jesus, you want us to uplift one of the old saints instead.

 

[Oneofhope]

What "amazes me" is how your promoting a false gospel on here. Instead of promoting Jesus, you want us to uplift one of the old saints instead.

Is the entire chapter 11 of Hebrews also guilty of uplifting our Patriarchs, thus creating a "false gospel" as well?

I am promoting a false gospel. Yep. I've been called all kinds of things for quoting Scripture. Only at a "christian" website does a person get this kind of divisive mindset, the mindset where Scripture is thrown out and discredited.

 

[ARBITER01]

Is the entire chapter 11 of Hebrews also guilty of uplifting our Patriarchs, thus creating a "false gospel" as well?

I am promoting a false gospel. Yep. I've been called all kinds of things for quoting Scripture. Only at a "christian" website does a person get this kind of divisive mindset, the mindset where Scripture is thrown out and discredited.

At this point you should probably show yourself out the door and maybe hang out with the Messianic crowd, cause you've already made yourself out to be a heretic in front of us with your hatred of Christians, your promotion of old saints instead of Jesus, and your experiences that have no alignment with the NT.

 

[ARBITER01]

From his YouTube channel,....

"Unlike other studies of the Bible, the 2nd Timothy Group emphasizes a “no-frills” approach to the Mysterious Plan of God. Join us, and discover a side of the Bible that you did not know existed – the [other] side of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Yep,... a false gospel, I think that thoroughly answers my suspicions.