Baptism is a work.

[Oneofhope]

At this point you should probably show yourself out the door and maybe hang out with the Messianic crowd, cause you've already made yourself out to be a heretic in front of us with your hatred of Christians, your promotion of old saints instead of Jesus, and your experiences that have no alignment with the NT.

That's a typical "christian" response that I would expect. There is so little love in this modern-day movement of "christianity."

You didn't answer the question. Are our "Examples of Faith" in Hebrews 11 not actually examples for us to follow?

Romans 4:11-12 NLT - "Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."

Paul wrote what he wrote about Abraham within the New Testament and he speaks to us this day with these same applicable words.

Do you reject the teachings of Paul and what he says about genuine Faith for those of us today?

 

[Oneofhope]

From his YouTube channel,....

"Unlike other studies of the Bible, the 2nd Timothy Group emphasizes a “no-frills” approach to the Mysterious Plan of God. Join us, and discover a side of the Bible that you did not know existed – the [other] side of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Yep,... a false gospel, I think that thoroughly answers my suspicions.

Have you studied the entire Bible? Can you express the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order? If not, the things I offer won't make any sense to you. Our time, therefore, would be a complete waste. If you are going to speak from a position of authority, yet cannot explain the Bible in a timeline, chronological order . . . conversation with you will be utterly futile.

 

[ARBITER01]

. . . conversation with you will be utterly futile.

AIn't nobody holding you here.

It's not just false prophets that we need to watch out for in the end times, but false gospels as well. You got caught.

 

[Strong in Him]

Right. Those who do not have the Spirit of God living within them will be divisive and argumentative.

Christians can disagree without being argumentative. And even if things do get a bit heated, that's no indication that the person isn't a
Christian.
Jesus opposed the Pharisees; called them hypocrites and whitewashed tombs.
Paul opposed Peter and called him a hypocrite, and also argued with Barnabas.
Did none of them have the Spirit of God?

 

[Oneofhope]

AIn't nobody holding you here.

It's not just false prophets that we need to watch out for in the end times, but false gospels as well. You got caught.

Ahhh . . . I have been caught. Then I'll deal with it.

Can you please copy and paste what I have said that is not supported in the Bible? Thanks!

 

[Oneofhope]

Christians can disagree without being argumentative. And even if things do get a bit heated, that's no indication that the person isn't a
Christian.
Jesus opposed the Pharisees; called them hypocrites and whitewashed tombs.
Paul opposed Peter and called him a hypocrite, and also argued with Barnabas.
Did none of them have the Spirit of God?

Ok. I'm not sure why we need to have this discussion, but if you must:

Paul teaches that people who are argumentative prove that they have yet to have their Sinful Nature removed. Therefore, I try to stay away from name-calling, labeling, etc. I'd prefer to state what seems to be facts. For example, some here feel that I am accusatory when in reality, I am not casting judgment, but simply stating what I see. Describing the condition of the church is not a judgment, but an expression of what can be seen by all.

Jesus was in a position to refer to His creations in any manner He likes. It is not for me to argue with the Lord. We are told not to refer to someone even as an idiot, lest we be in danger of judgment.

Perhaps you are right about "arguing" between Paul and Barnabas. I have never felt that there was arguing going on, but more of a tongue-lashing from Paul. I'll have to read that again. The only time I recall Paul ever sinning in his speech was against the high Priest, stating that God would strike him down. Other than that, I don't recall any other behavior from him that required an apology of sorts.

The hypocrites that Jesus referred to . . . no, it was unlikely they held the Spirit of the Lord.

Peter, Paul and Barnabas . . . yes, I believe they all experienced and understood the Holy Effects of the Indwelling Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

Right. Those who do not have the Spirit of God living within them will be divisive and argumentative. Those who do not have the Spirit of God within them do not know Christ or belong to Him . . . at all.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

When you say things like that, you are actually implying that those who disagree with you, falls under the those...

Are you aware of that?

 

[Oneofhope]

When you say things like that, you are actually implying that those who disagree with you, falls under the those...

Are you aware of that?

No. I am unable to follow your sense of understanding.

 

[Guojing]

No. I am unable to follow your sense of understanding.

I see, no wonder you appear to be responding in such a manner, yet oblivious to how others are perceiving you.

 

[Oneofhope]

I see, no wonder you appear to be responding in such a manner, yet oblivious to how others are perceiving you.

I would encourage you to copy and paste the travesties that I have offered.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is correct.

There are many steps in the Christian faith,

I agree.

water immersion is the second one, with the filling of The Holy Spirit being the third,

Generally speaking. Being filled with the Holy Spirit happened before baptism with Cornelius. So there is no specific order on this.

and the anointing upon our heads by The Father being the fourth,

Scripture verses?

and the resting upon of The Holy Spirit in power being the fifth.

Scripture verses?

We have ourselves water immersed because that is what Jesus did to fulfill all righteousness,.... we do His works that He did, just like He said over in John,...

John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

I believe Jesus’ baptism was different than the baptism of repentance of John (See Acts 19) and while more similar to New Covenant baptism, Christ’s baptism was still distinct and unique from our baptism.

We follow His example,

Yes, in holy conduct as a man. But Jesus is God and so there are limits of how far we go in following His example. Meaning, we cannot let others worship us like Jesus was worshiped (of which I am sure you agree).

just like we follow Abrahams example of faith

We follow Abraham’s faith in the sense that we first believe the gospel as a part of our Initial Salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Ephesians 2:8-9). Abraham believed God on the promise and it was accounted to him for righteousness before he was circumcised (a work) (Romans 4:3-5).

by giving a tenth of our earnings.

No. The New Covenant way of giving now is found in 2 Corinthians 9:7.

Water immersion is a work/step of faith, one that follows our Spiritual immersion of being born again.

Yes. I agree with this.

 

[ARBITER01]

Generally speaking. Being filled with the Holy Spirit happened before baptism with Cornelius. So there is no specific order on this.

I follow the example that Jesus gave us to fulfill all righteousness.

Scripture verses?

Scripture verses?

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

I believe Jesus’ baptism was different than the baptism of repentance of John (See Acts 19) and while more similar to New Covenant baptism, Christ’s baptism was still distinct and unique from our baptism.

Yes, in holy conduct as a man. But Jesus is God and so there are limits of how far we go in following His example. Meaning, we cannot let others worship us like Jesus was worshiped (of which I am sure you agree).

Jesus came here as a man to provide us a perfect example to follow and adhere to. He left His divinity behind.

We follow Abraham’s faith in the sense that we first believe the gospel as a part of our Initial Salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Ephesians 2:8-9). Abraham believed God on the promise and it was accounted to him for righteousness before he was circumcised (a work) (Romans 4:3-5).


No. The New Covenant way of giving now is found in 2 Corinthians 9:7.

We will just have differences on this. I understand that we are to give, but my regular giving is based around that 10th that Abraham gave, not the law of moses. If you wish to adhere to some other way, that is between you and The Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I follow the example that Jesus gave us to fulfill all righteousness.

We should try to follow that example but we are also living in the last days where many Christians justify sin in some way.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

This passage says nothing about the Father anointing us and or some later empowerment by the Spirit.

Jesus came here as a man to provide us a perfect example to follow and adhere to. He left His divinity behind.

The Modern Bibles teach this in Philippians 2:7 (ESV) (NLT), and yet it is false. How so? While Christ suppressed His knowledge of Omniscience, it is also true that…

Jesus had power as God:
(During His Earthly Ministry):

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).

2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.

3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).

4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).

5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).

6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.

7. Jesus can make His home or abode inside of us if we keep His commandments (John 14:15). This is a part of His divine power and or abilities as God. Humans born to two parents cannot make their homes inside other people.

8. “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.” (John 2:11). This was a direct statement. Meaning, Christ’s miracle at the wedding of Cana manifested His glory. This was his first miracle done by Jesus, and it was a part of His showing forth His deity as God. The apostle John did not say that the Lord Jesus manifested the Holy Spirit’s glory, but His own glory.

9. ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14). This was said by Jesus before the cross, and answering prayers is definitely a divine act of God. Please pay close attention to what Jesus said. He said, “I will do it“ in reference to answering prayer. So if a person prays for a healing in His name, he will do it. He will be the One who will heal them and do it.

10. John 5:17 (NKJV) “But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” If you were to read a little before verse 17, we learn that this is in context to the Jews being upset because of Christ healing a man on the Sabbath. So Jesus is taking ownership of this healing because He said He has been working (Just as the Father). John 5:19 says, “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

We will just have differences on this. I understand that we are to give, but my regular giving is based around that 10th that Abraham gave, not the law of moses. If you wish to adhere to some other way, that is between you and The Lord.

I believe everything we sow is to go to the Lord in some way if we can. There is nothing that is mine that is not the Lord’s.

 

[ARBITER01]

We should try to follow that example but we are also living in the last days where many Christians justify sin in some way.



This passage says nothing about the Father anointing us and or some later empowerment by the Spirit.


The Modern Bibles teach this in Philippians 2:7 (ESV) (NLT)and yet it is false.

Jesus had power as God:
(During His Earthly Ministry):

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).

2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.

3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).

4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).

5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).

6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.

7. Jesus can make His home or abode inside of us if we keep His commandments (John 14:15). This is a part of His divine power and or abilities as God. Humans born to two parents cannot make their homes inside other people.

8. “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.” (John 2:11). This was a direct statement. Meaning, Christ’s miracle at the wedding of Cana manifested His glory. This was his first miracle done by Jesus, and it was a part of His showing forth His deity as God. The apostle John did not say that the Lord Jesus manifested the Holy Spirit’s glory, but His own glory.

9. ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14). This was said by Jesus before the cross, and answering prayers is definitely a divine act of God. Please pay close attention to what Jesus said. He said, “I will do it“ in reference to answering prayer. So if a person prays for a healing in His name, he will do it. He will be the One who will heal them and do it.

10. John 5:17 (NKJV) “But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” If you were to read a little before verse 17, we learn that this is in context to the Jews being upset because of Christ healing a man on the Sabbath. So Jesus is taking ownership of this healing because He said He has been working (Just as the Father). John 5:19 says, “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”



I believe everything we sow is to go to the Lord in some way if we can. There is nothing that is mine that is not the Lord’s.

Sorry, if you are unable to see Jesus as your perfect example to imitate, then we can go no further in our conversation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, if you are unable to see Jesus as your perfect example to imitate, then we can go no further in our conversation.

I believe 1 John 2:6 and other such verses just fine. We are to follow a Christ in his human example. But are you not aware that Jesus was worshiped as God? This is something we cannot receive or follow seeing we are only created.

 

[Strong in Him]

Ok. I'm not sure why we need to have this discussion, but if you must:

No real need.
I just said that people will always disagree, and your reply was that those who don't have the Spirit will be divisive and argumentative.
That sounded as though you were saying that any Christian who disagreed, or argued, with someone else, did not have the Holy Spirit. Sorry if you weren't saying that, but that's what it sounded like.
I just pointed out that there are examples in Scripture of people who argued with, or opposed, others.

Paul teaches that people who are argumentative prove that they have yet to have their Sinful Nature removed.

If they constantly pick arguments for the sake of it, or contradict everyone just so that they can argue; yes, probably.
But two Christians can disagree - maybe even quite strongly - without it meaning that they are not filled with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, I try to stay away from name-calling, labeling, etc.

Very wise.

Perhaps you are right about "arguing" between Paul and Barnabas. I have never felt that there was arguing going on, but more of a tongue-lashing from Paul. I'll have to read that again.

That passage always saddens me. Barnabas was the one who had introduced Paul to the Apostles when they were suspicious of his conversion. Yet Paul told Barnabas he wouldn't give John Mark a second chance - even though Barnabas had given Paul one.
As someone once commented, the result of the disagreement was that there were two missionary teams instead of one; even so, it wasn't a great witness.

The only time I recall Paul ever sinning in his speech was against the high Priest, stating that God would strike him down.

Interesting; I have never thought of that as a sin.

The hypocrites that Jesus referred to . . . no, it was unlikely they held the Spirit of the Lord.

Maybe.
I was just answering what I thought you were saying, which was that any Christian who argued did not have the Holy Spirit.
And it shouldn't matter whether the other person has the Spirit/is a believer or not.

Peter, Paul and Barnabas . . . yes, I believe they all experienced and understood the Holy Effects of the Indwelling Spirit.

Yes they did - yet there were times when they still argued.
That was my point.

 

[ARBITER01]

I believe 1 John 2:6 and other such verses just fine. We are to follow a Christ in his human example. But are you not aware that Jesus was worshiped as God? This is something we cannot receive or follow seeing we are only created.

Jesus Himself told us to do His works,....

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

Now if you're scared that you will try to have people worship you, I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus Himself told us to do His works,....

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

Why are you trying to convince me of a point I am not in disagreement with you over? I believe we are to follow Christ’s example in holy conduct as a man. We are not in disagreement on this point. What we are in disagreement over is Jesus having divine power as the second person of the Trinity or Godhead.

Now if you're scared that you will try to have people worship you, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Okay. This statement makes no sense. Nowhere did I express any concern or problem in this happening. My point was to show to you that Jesus was not solely a man but He is God. This means we do not imitate Christ when He was being worshiped. Jesus was worshiped as God. Do you agree with that? Do you agree that Jesus should have been worshiped as God? Yes, or no?

 

[Oneofhope]

I just said that people will always disagree, and your reply was that those who don't have the Spirit will be divisive and argumentative.
That sounded as though you were saying that any Christian who disagreed, or argued, with someone else, did not have the Holy Spirit.

I was actually quoting a concept from the Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:3 NLT - ". . . for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn't that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren't you living like people of the world?"

Paul's point is that those who are jealous and fight with each other proves that their Sinful Nature has yet to be cut out. This implies that a person is still considered "dead" according to Colossians 2:9-15. This jealousy and quarreling, however, would need to be a consistent part of a person's character. Occasional jealousy or quarreling would not prove anything.

The things that I say are often nearly a direct quote from the Bible, though I may not use chapter and verse.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul's point is that those who are jealous and fight with each other proves that their Sinful Nature has yet to be cut out. This implies that a person is still considered "dead" according to Colossians 2:9-15. This jealousy and quarreling, however, would need to be a consistent part of a person's character. Occasional jealousy or quarreling would not prove anything.

I know. And now that you've explained it like that, I agree with you.

But, as I said, I wrote the words "people will always disagree", you replied by saying that quarrelsome people did not have the Spirit - and I felt that you were saying "if any Christian argues, or disagrees, with another, they are not filled with the Spirit." That was why I gave you the examples that I did and said "what about them?"

If someone said that they were born again, a new creation but spent their time arguing/picking fault/complaining etc I would probably question what they had understood by 'giving their life to Christ'.
That said, growth is gradual. Someone might well be filled with the Spirit but the fruit of love, or patience, isn't yet fully grown.