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Baptism and babies

ArmyMatt

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You mean like Matt has tried to use the case of the infant John the Baptist as the ground rule for all humans?

actually, I didn't do that. you said that you can't baptize babies since they must first believe, and then be baptized. I used the Baptist as an example to show they can believe even while in the womb, which isn't the same as saying all will.
 
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East of Eden

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actually, I didn't do that. you said that you can't baptize babies since they must first believe, and then be baptized. I used the Baptist as an example to show they can believe even while in the womb, which isn't the same as saying all will.

You implied it was the ground rule for all humans regarding infant baptism.
 
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East of Eden

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they live as non-Christians because they choose to. Saul was still anointed as king, but he didn't use the gift that was given.

So as Saul was king, a baptized infant is ipso facto, a regenerated or born again person?

and I know we disagree, but I am not the one justifying my position with a modern definition of belief not found in the Bible.

We again disagree.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I said the NT. The early church was full of error, look at Jesus' criticism of them in Revelation.

fine, the earliest Christians in Acts still went to synagogues and the Temple. St Paul even remarked he had to celebrate Pentecost.

that's Liturgical.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So as Saul was king, a baptized infant is ipso facto, a regenerated or born again person?



We again disagree.

no, but God did annoint him as king. that was a reference to the fact that just because a gift is given, we still must use and not abuse the gift.

and again, of course we do. but how you defined belief is still not found in Scripture.
 
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ArmyMatt

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You implied it was the ground rule for all humans regarding infant baptism.

only to show that you are wrong that babies don't believe. pretty clear example that they can and sometimes do.
 
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East of Eden

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fine, the earliest Christians in Acts still went to synagogues and the Temple. St Paul even remarked he had to celebrate Pentecost.

That would have been the pre-church era, correct?

that's Liturgical.

Not opposed to liturgy, just not so much, YMMV. A lot of protestant churches have been incorporating some liturgy in their services.
 
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East of Eden

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they live as non-Christians because they choose to.

This is the problem, an infant doesn't choose anything in regards to baptism. There is no belief first, nor can there be, as we see in the NT model of baptism.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That would have been the pre-church era, correct?



Not opposed to liturgy, just not so much, YMMV. A lot of protestant churches have been incorporating some liturgy in their services.

no, that isn't the pre-Church era.

you can say not so much, but that's not what you see in the Scripture.
 
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ArmyMatt

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This is the problem, an infant doesn't choose anything in regards to baptism. There is no belief first, nor can there be, as we see in the NT model of baptism.

again, this is only if you define belief as something purely mental.
 
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Light of the East

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Only if you discount the NT.

So what do you imagine I believe that the NT church did not? Do you find incense and the ritualism of your church there?

You don't believe in priests.

NT: John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This is a continuation of the priesthood which began with Adam. Priests represent God to man and man to God. Furthermore, scripture states that we have been made priests unto God. Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

The priesthood is three-tiered and a continuation of the structure set up in the OT. There is the general priesthood of the covenant people - the laity. Then there is the sarcedotal priesthood in which they perform the covenant rituals such as baptism, marriage, ordination, etc. Finally, there is the Great High Priest, which is Christ. (Hebrews 7-10).

You believe in "making a decision for Christ" and deny that infant children are baptized into the congregation of God. This again is refuted both by the testimony of the Early Fathers and their writings, as well as the covenant nature of membership in the congregation of God. The principle of covenant membership was began with Abraham in Genesis 15-17 and continues. In this manner, God told Abraham to circumcize his infant male children. By doing so, they were made members of the covenant community and set aside as special unto God. Late in life, the child would go through Bar Mitzvah where he would take the covenant vows his parents made on his behalf as being his own vows, thus accepting for himself that which was done for him.

You believe in a form of penal substitution salvation in which the fall of Adam and the corresponding separation of mankind from God is a legal and penal matter rather than one of healing the sickness of the soul. This wretched doctrine began within the Latin Church and they were and still are the ones pushing it. Salvation is not a matter of a once-and-done "decision for Jesus" (which again, is anti-covenant in denying infants the right to become members of the covenant community) but rather an ongoing process in which we are changed into the likeness of Christ (theosis). This takes a lifetime, and can also be lost, another thing which the "once-and-done" crowd denies. You (maybe not you, but many Baptists I heard preach - Billy Graham would be an example) teach that once you make the decision for Jesus, you are declared "not guilty" in the court of heaven and are "as sure of heaven as if you were there right now." Don't tell me otherwise. I was a Bob Jones Anabaptist for 13 years and drank deeply of that well.

You slam "ritualism" yet you haven't a clue what ritual is about. The word "covenant" appears over 300 times between OT and NT. All covenant operations are done with rituals. Marriage is an example. You don't just walk up to a woman you have been dating and say "Now you are my wife." There is an entire process of legalizing and formalizing the marital covenant. The same is true with public service. Look at the rituals of making a man a police officer or increasing him in rank.

Your problem is that you, like just about every Baptist I have ever spoken with, do not realize that we are covenant people and you don't understand the principles by which a covenant works. I outlined them for you in another place on this board and you didn't even have the politeness to acknowledge that I had posted them. The Kingdom of God is a Suzerainty Covenant Kingdom, in which the Father is the Great Suzerain. If you don't "get" these terms, look them up and study them. They go all the way back to the OT and carry forward to the NT. Covenant principles do not change.

Since we are discussing baptism, I will close with this: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is one of many verses which I, when I was both an Anabaptist and then PCA Calvinist, cruised right on by without catching what it was saying. It says that baptism is "into the remission of sins." How much more clear could that be?

It is into the remission of sins because it unites us to Christ. When a baptism takes place in the East, the Trisagion Hymn is changed and we sing "All you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." To put on Christ is to join Him in covenant union, to leave the old man of sin behind, and to start the journey of salvation. Many do well on that journey and many fall away, but the result of baptism is always the same - you are now "in Christ."

Cheers!
 
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Light of the East

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I said the NT. The early church was full of error, look at Jesus' criticism of them in Revelation.

The criticism of them in Revelation has nothing to do with the covenant principles they were following.

Ephesus -- left her first love. Their zeal waned. Has nothing to do with the covenant rituals.

Smyrna -- No criticism. Encouraged to be faithful under persecution.

Pergamos -- tolerance of sin within the congregation. Again, has nothing to do with the covenant practice of baptizing infants into the Kingdom.

Thyatira -- problems with a woman named "Jezebel" a fornicator and false prophetess. Was this a real woman or is this symbolic language of something else going on? Either way, it has nothing to do with presenting infant baptism as an error.

Sardis -- had become a dead church. Their works were imperfect.

Philadelphia -- commended for having a "little strength" and standing for truth. Christ promises to strengthen them.

Laodicea -- the famous "lukewarm" church. Kind of like the church in America - just crusing along, self-satisfied and lacking zeal.

Where is the specific condemnation of baptizing infants, which was common practice?
 
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East of Eden

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You don't believe in priests.

In the church era, probably not in the sense you do. I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that Christ was the final priestly mediator between God and His people.

See The Priesthood of All Believers - The Gospel Coalition

NT: John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

From another source:

"It is this context which frames Jesus' remark about forgiveness: this declaration comes because these men are being reminded and guided by the Spirit of God. In no sense, at all, does Christ mean that forgiveness of sin is being determined by the disciples, or that they are choosing whether to absolve others of sin. The original Greek language uses more easily defined tenses, so it comes across more clearly, emphasizing that such sins "have already been forgiven" or "have already been retained." Guided by the truth of the Holy Spirit and in keeping with His truth, these men will be able to accurately declare whether others are abiding by those truths."

This is a continuation of the priesthood which began with Adam. Priests represent God to man and man to God. Furthermore, scripture states that we have been made priests unto God. Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

The priesthood is three-tiered and a continuation of the structure set up in the OT. There is the general priesthood of the covenant people - the laity. Then there is the sarcedotal priesthood in which they perform the covenant rituals such as baptism, marriage, ordination, etc. Finally, there is the Great High Priest, which is Christ. (Hebrews 7-10).

I reject this 'continuation' of the priesthood, see my link above.

You believe in "making a decision for Christ" and deny that infant children are baptized into the congregation of God.

Correct.

This again is refuted both by the testimony of the Early Fathers and their writings, as well as the covenant nature of membership in the congregation of God. The principle of covenant membership was began with Abraham in Genesis 15-17 and continues. In this manner, God told Abraham to circumcize his infant male children. By doing so, they were made members of the covenant community and set aside as special unto God. Late in life, the child would go through Bar Mitzvah where he would take the covenant vows his parents made on his behalf as being his own vows, thus accepting for himself that which was done for him.

As I've said many times on this thread, the OT covenant was based on male birth to Jewish parents, the NT New Covenant foretold in the OT is based on faith in Christ, which precludes infants. See Jer. 31:31-33.

You believe in a form of penal substitution salvation in which the fall of Adam and the corresponding separation of mankind from God is a legal and penal matter rather than one of healing the sickness of the soul.

Correct, as did the NT writers and many in the early church. Romans 5 among other passages.

Here is one of the earliest Christian apologetic texts we have, The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, dated sometime in the second century:

O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!

In his exposition of Psalm 51, Augustine (AD 354–430) wrote,

For even the Lord was subject to death, but not on account of sin: He took upon him our punishment, and so looseth our guilt. . . . Now, as men were lying under this wrath by reason of their original sin . . . there was need for a mediator, that is for a reconciler, who by the offering of one sacrifice, of which all the sacrifices of the law and the prophets were types, should take away this wrath. . . . Now when God is said to be angry, we do not attribute to him such a disturbed feeling as exists in the mind of an angry man; but we call his just displeasure against sin by the name “anger,” a word transferred by analogy from human emotions.

This wretched doctrine began within the Latin Church

No, it began with God's word. If your church gets salvation wrong, there isn't much left.

and they were and still are the ones pushing it. Salvation is not a matter of a once-and-done "decision for Jesus" (which again, is anti-covenant in denying infants the right to become members of the covenant community) but rather an ongoing process in which we are changed into the likeness of Christ (theosis).

I certainly agree we all need to be more deeply converted, but that is a different issue than our salvation.

This takes a lifetime, and can also be lost, another thing which the "once-and-done" crowd denies.

People can choose to walk away from the faith, see Heb. 6:4-6. For everyone else, we can know we are saved, among other passages see 1 John 5:12-13, He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You (maybe not you, but many Baptists I heard preach - Billy Graham would be an example) teach that once you make the decision for Jesus, you are declared "not guilty" in the court of heaven and are "as sure of heaven as if you were there right now."

I agree with Billy, see Romans 8:1-2. Billy was a co-worker in the vineyard of the Lord with many, many Anglicans over the decades, beginning with his crusades in the UK in the '50s which greatly influenced the C of E, he was a close collaborator with the Rev. John RW Stott, whom a former Archbishop of Canterbury called one of the greatest in the Anglican world, the head of that Church QEII loved having him preach, so that isn't just a Baptist thing.

Don't tell me otherwise. I was a Bob Jones Anabaptist for 13 years and drank deeply of that well.

Which proves what? I was an Anglican for 30 years, confirmed by a former Presiding Bishop.

You slam "ritualism" yet you haven't a clue what ritual is about.

See above.

The word "covenant" appears over 300 times between OT and NT.

You left out the "Old" and "New" parts connected with those covenant appearances.

All covenant operations are done with rituals. Marriage is an example. You don't just walk up to a woman you have been dating and say "Now you are my wife." There is an entire process of legalizing and formalizing the marital covenant. The same is true with public service. Look at the rituals of making a man a police officer or increasing him in rank.

I'm not totally anti-ritual, but there is a huge lack of expository Biblical preaching in your churches. I've never heard a good sermon in a RCC church. I said that to a priest once who sat next to me on a flight, he later emailed me a sermon by Bishop Fulton Sheen, very telling he had to go back decades to find one. The Bible says, "for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God". I had a friend once who was a former Catholic tell me as a child he would question his priest about the conflicts he would read between the Bible and RCC theology and his priest told him if he wouldn't read the Bible so much he wouldn't have so many questions. That is clergy malpractice.

Your problem is that you, like just about every Baptist I have ever spoken with, do not realize that we are covenant people and you don't understand the principles by which a covenant works.

Amazing how you know everything about me like that. Did you ever consider that we reject your covenant notions?

I outlined them for you in another place on this board and you didn't even have the politeness to acknowledge that I had posted them.

OK, I'll say it now, I disagree.

The Kingdom of God is a Suzerainty Covenant Kingdom, in which the Father is the Great Suzerain. If you don't "get" these terms, look them up and study them. They go all the way back to the OT and carry forward to the NT. Covenant principles do not change.

So there's no difference between the Old and New Covenants?

Since we are discussing baptism, I will close with this: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You're making my point, note the sequence, repent, then be baptized. An infant can't repent.
 
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East of Eden

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The criticism of them in Revelation has nothing to do with the covenant principles they were following.

Ephesus -- left her first love. Their zeal waned. Has nothing to do with the covenant rituals.

Smyrna -- No criticism. Encouraged to be faithful under persecution.

Pergamos -- tolerance of sin within the congregation. Again, has nothing to do with the covenant practice of baptizing infants into the Kingdom.

Thyatira -- problems with a woman named "Jezebel" a fornicator and false prophetess. Was this a real woman or is this symbolic language of something else going on? Either way, it has nothing to do with presenting infant baptism as an error.

Sardis -- had become a dead church. Their works were imperfect.

Philadelphia -- commended for having a "little strength" and standing for truth. Christ promises to strengthen them.

Laodicea -- the famous "lukewarm" church. Kind of like the church in America - just crusing along, self-satisfied and lacking zeal.

Where is the specific condemnation of baptizing infants, which was common practice?

Where is the specific mention of baptizing infants, rather than assumptions? My point was just because the early church did something doesn't validate it, it has to be measured against the yardstick of Scripture. I would say I've seen a bit of Sardis-like dead churches among the Orthodox where I grew up, some Greek Orthodox congregation were little more than a Greek social club with a priest attached, despite their infant baptisms.
 
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Albion

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Where is the specific mention of baptizing infants, rather than assumptions?
Whole households. You know this already.

My point was just because the early church did something doesn't validate it, it has to be measured against the yardstick of Scripture.
...and that has indeed been done in this case.
 
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ArmyMatt

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it has to be measured against the yardstick of Scripture.

two questions: where is this said, and what did the Church do in the 17ish years between the Resurrection and the writing of the first books of the NT?
 
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East of Eden

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two questions: where is this said,

Gal. 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

II Cor.11:3-4 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

and what did the Church do in the 17ish years between the Resurrection and the writing of the first books of the NT?

It's a bit of a leading question, why don't you tell me your answer?
 
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