Baptisim

Tonks · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
He was also telling they had to serve others just as we are to serve others today.

Agreed. Do SDA do this more than once a year (???) - I've heard that they do but it has all been hearsay thus far as I've never asked.

ThreeAM · Mar 14, 2006

Tonks said:
Agreed. Do SDA do this more than once a year (???) - I've heard that they do but it has all been hearsay thus far as I've never asked.

Yes we do it 4 times a year but there doesn't seem. to be a specific frenquency set forth in the scriptures. I think it is a decission left to the church. I have seen video of the Pope [I think?] washing feet before on the news. It must have been on Maundy Thursday I guess.

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
He was also telling they had to serve others just as we are to serve others today.

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you

Foot washing or the odinance of humility was designed to help prevent pride from rising within the church. If it was important enough that Christ [God] washed feet it is important enough that we should follow His footsteps and His direct command. We are all servants. The puting away of human pride is part of the process of sanctification.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Pro 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

We agree, this is part of the Christian philosophy.

The event of the foot washing showed us this and the presits reenact it on the same night to remind us of our own philosophy, to remind us that we are to walk in humility always.

It’s still not a sacrament though.

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Yes we do it 4 times a year but there doesn't seem. to be a specific frenquency set forth in the scriptures. I think it is a decission left to the church. I have seen video of the Pope [I think?] washing feet before on the news. It must have been on Maundy Thursday I guess.

The difference I see between us here is that the washing of the feet represents the priests duty to the laity, to serve them and to Peter's duty especially, to us as the chief servant.

We all know we are all to serve one another with a spirit of humility but the washing of the feet symbolizes the priests’ humility especially, that they are here to serve us, not rule over us like the Pharisee did.

BereanWorkman · Mar 14, 2006

1 COR 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body..

There is only one baptism that will put you into Christ.

ThreeAM · Mar 14, 2006

Shelb5 said:
We agree, this is part of the Christian philosophy.

The event of the foot washing showed us this and the presits reenact it on the same night to remind us of our own philosophy, to remind us that we are to walk in humility always.

Shelb5 said:
Its still not a sacrament though.

But it is a command from Christ..and that is much more important than a ruling from the Council of Trent. [To me at least.]

Tonks · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
But it is a command from Christ..and that is much more important than a ruling from the Council of Trent. [To me at least.]

This has nothing to do with Trent. There are ECF writings as early as the 4th century that detail (quite vaguely) the washing of the feet.

The Catholic Church follows Christ's command every Holy Thursday - the same day that the biblical washing of feet took place. We're certainly not ignoring it. The frequency of the act was certainly never enumerated explicitly in the Bible.

The Church merely recognizes that every command that Christ gave does not impart grace - which is the nature of the sacrament.

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
But it is a command from Christ..and that is much more important than a ruling from the Council of Trent. [To me at least.]

In which we obey.

Trent? Huh?

The 7 sacraments of the Church were instituted by Christ, not by Trent.

Trent may have had to re affirm them due to reformers wanting to deny them, perfect example of exercising those keys of authority, but in no way do they come from Tent, they come from Christ and are 2000 years old in practice.

ThreeAM · Mar 14, 2006

Shelb5 said:
The difference I see between us here is that the washing of the feet represents the priests duty to the laity, to serve them and to Peter's duty especially, to us as the chief servant.

We all know we are all to serve one another with a spirit of humility but the washing of the feet symbolizes the priests humility especially, that they are here to serve us, not rule over us like the Pharisee did.

I believe the leadership of the church and the laity are all servants and as servants we are all charged with spreading the gospel and we are all subject to human pride. I believe Christ was speaking to us all.

I read an interesting story by a woman who was a student at one of our colleges. She had treated another rather unattractive female very badly on several occasions. When the ordinace of humility was held the the less attractive female humbly washed the feet of her tormentor the author of the story. It was then the author's turn to do the same. She felt extreme shame for her previous actions and first asked and recieve forgiveness from the girl she had been so unkind to it marked a turning point on how she treated others.. That is the purpose of foot washing.

Tonks · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
I believe the leadership of the church and the laity are all servants and as servants we are all charged with spreading the gospel and we are all subject to human pride. I believe Christ was speaking to us all.

Be that as it may....I think that debating differences in orthopraxy and theology when it comes to washing of the feet is absurd in the extreme.

Frankly, I'm comfortable with either definition - though I do understand the Catholic position somewhat better.

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
I believe the leadership of the church and the laity are all servants and as servants we are all charged with spreading the gospel and we are all subject to human pride. I believe Christ was speaking to us all.

I read an interesting story by a woman who was a student at one of our colleges. She had treated another rather unattractive female very badly on several occasions. When the ordinace of humility was held the the less attractive female humbly washed the feet of her tormentor the author of the story. It was then the author's turn to do the same. She felt extreme shame for her previous actions and first asked and recieve forgiveness from the girl she had been so unkind to it marked a turning point on how she treated others.. That is the purpose of foot washing.

Yes, it is good lesson for us all and a wonderful thing to reenact/do, to show that we are humble. We all can take away something from it and it also can move people to humility and inspire them to be more humble, convict them when they haven’t been but in context at the Last Supper, Jesus was teaching the apostles through doing it, that priests, pastors, clerics, men of God are there to serve the people.

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

BereanWorkman said:
1 COR 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body..

There is only one baptism that will put you into Christ.

That's why we can only receive one valid baptism, any and all others, just get you wet.

Tonks · Mar 14, 2006

BereanWorkman said:
1 COR 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body..

There is only one baptism that will put you into Christ.

Which is why, for converts that have been validly baptised, the Catholic Church accepts their baptism.

valid = done in the Trinitarian formula. note = "I baptize you in the name of Christ" doesn't cut it as it sort of misses the point of Christianity.

ThreeAM · Mar 14, 2006

Shelb5 said:
In which we obey.

Trent? Huh?

The 7 sacraments of the Church were instituted by Christ, not by Trent.

Trent may have had to re affirm them due to reformers wanting to deny them, perfect example of exercising those keys of authority, but in no way do they come from Tent, they come from Christ and are 2000 years old in practice.

But the council of Trent would have decided that foot washing a direct command from Christ was not a sacrament. I'm just a lot more comfortable following Christ example.

From the catholic encylopedia

"The Council of Trent did not define explicitly and formally that all the sacraments were instituted immediately by Christ. Before the council great theologians, e.g. Peter Lombard (IV Sent., d. xxiii), Hugh of St. Victor (De sac. II, ii) Alexander of Hales (Summa, IV, Q. xxiv, 1) held that some sacraments were instituted by the Apostles, using power that had been given to them by Jesus Christ. Doubts were raised especially about Confirmation and Extreme Unction. St. Thomas rejects the opinion that Confirmation was instituted by the Apostles."

Benedicta00 · Mar 14, 2006

ThreeAM said:
But the council of Trent would have decided that foot washing a direct command from Christ was not a sacrament. I'm just a lot more comfortable following Christ example.

From the catholic encylopedia

"The Council of Trent did not define explicitly and formally that all the sacraments were instituted immediately by Christ. Before the council great theologians, e.g. Peter Lombard (IV Sent., d. xxiii), Hugh of St. Victor (De sac. II, ii) Alexander of Hales (Summa, IV, Q. xxiv, 1) held that some sacraments were instituted by the Apostles, using power that had been given to them by Jesus Christ. Doubts were raised especially about Confirmation and Extreme Unction. St. Thomas rejects the opinion that Confirmation was instituted by the Apostles."

Umm, okay... then go wash some feet.

I’m still not getting the Trent/sacraments/washing feet connection.

Do you understand that Trent was in reaction the Protestant reformation?

ThreeAM · Mar 14, 2006

Shelb5 said:
Umm, okay... then go wash some feet.

I’m still not getting the Trent/sacraments/washing feet connection.

Do you understand that Trent was in reaction the Protestant reformation?

Well a decision on what the church considers sacraments and what it does not consider sacraments [I.E. Foot washing] had to be made some where. The council of Trent was one place that confirmed what the church considered a sacrament. One of the issues between the Protestant church and the Catholic church was "sacraments" in general. That is the reason the Council of Trent addressed the issue.

As I said personally I'm more comfortable following Christ's comand and example.

Stinker · Mar 14, 2006

Shelb5 said:
Where in the bible or anywhere else for that matter can I find Jesus or anyone else for that matter before the reformation teaching us that it's a public statement? Where does that premise come from? Its only about 500 years old.

The writing of the early Christians clearly reveal that since the first couple of centuries after Christ ascended it was seen and practiced in the Church as regenerative.

John 3:22-30 (New International Version)

John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordanthe one you testified aboutwell, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."
John 4:1 (New International Version)

John 4

Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,

Schroeder · Mar 14, 2006

sportsfreak4 said:
Going by these verses I would say you have to be baptized to be saved:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

THIS PASSAGE IS ABOUT THE sPIRIT not water. read john 3:18 and john 37-39. you can not believe and be Spirit baptized and NOT be saved. but you certainly can believe and be water baptized and be unsaved.

Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

you switched the words around. it say repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus. so it says to do both REPENT and be baptised in his name. NOt just to be baptised. at this point it must be of the Spirit baptism. FOr one you dont receive the SPirit when you are water baptized. EPh 1:13-14 shows that it is at belief(repentance). verse 41 shows the water baptism part. AFTER they ACCEPTED his message. Also water baptism doesnt give you forgiveness of sins. only his work on the cross does this and you are joined to this when you receive the Spirit Rom 6, 8

There is also an antitype which now saves usbaptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

again it the Spirit. read hebrews 9:10 then 9:14,notice the word conscience. as the flood(waters) were the work of God so the water mentioned is the work of God now, being the Spirit, which as Titus 3:5 says washing of rebirth and renewall. the same thing the water of the flood did to the earth.

Also you say that we should be baptized then do we still go to Heaven if we dont get baptized?

so yes and i imagine you think the same.

Stinker · Mar 14, 2006

Water baptism has always been a public declaration of one's decision to follow the authority of the baptism:

Matthew 3:7-8 (Amplified Bible)

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee and escape from the wrath and indignation [of God against disobedience] that is coming? 8Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart];

Both Jesus and John the Baptist baptized with the water baptism of repentance. (Mk.1:4) (Jn.4:1)

This was a public demonstration then just as it was at Pentecost:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of (by the authority of) Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,.." (Acts 2:38)

And since the people that Jesus and His immediate disciples water baptized did not have to be re-baptized at or after Pentecost (but all those of John the Baptist's did Acts 19:1-5) it follows that water baptism is not essential to salvation....but repentance is.

sportsfreak4 · Mar 14, 2006

Schroeder said:
THIS PASSAGE IS ABOUT THE sPIRIT not water. read john 3:18 and john 37-39. you can not believe and be Spirit baptized and NOT be saved. but you certainly can believe and be water baptized and be unsaved.

you switched the words around. it say repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus. so it says to do both REPENT and be baptised in his name. NOt just to be baptised. at this point it must be of the Spirit baptism. FOr one you dont receive the SPirit when you are water baptized. EPh 1:13-14 shows that it is at belief(repentance). verse 41 shows the water baptism part. AFTER they ACCEPTED his message. Also water baptism doesnt give you forgiveness of sins. only his work on the cross does this and you are joined to this when you receive the Spirit Rom 6, 8

again it the Spirit. read hebrews 9:10 then 9:14,notice the word conscience. as the flood(waters) were the work of God so the water mentioned is the work of God now, being the Spirit, which as Titus 3:5 says washing of rebirth and renewall. the same thing the water of the flood did to the earth.

so yes and i imagine you think the same.

Still like to be showed how you know its baptism of the spirit...no one has showed me how they got that.

And no I didnt switch the words around in Acts 2:38..i copied and pasted straight from NKJ. Also it nevers says just to repent.

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