Baptisim = Salvation?

[schmidtp61]

I need some help with this. I don't think it's Biblical. Yes Jesus told the disciples to go out and baptise but I said that He was the way to eternal life and didn't mention baptisim. I am not anti baptisim in any way, just want some thoughts on this. Thanks, Pat

 

[cweb255]

baptism is the metaphor for being cleansed of worldly sins and living from that day forward in the Christ.

 

[quadding]

salvation is of the spirit and heart, we r spirit beings just as god is a spirit being, we have a spiritual heart that is the center of our spiritual being , it is where God's Spirit dwells in us , it is also where emotions and desires r, we r spiritually dead to God because of sin and when we repent and accept Jesus we become spiritually alive to God (born again), when we make God what is the MOST IMPORTANT to us we recieve God's spirit in our hearts and the inborn nature is cast out, our hearts r purifyed and emotions and desires r no longer in control of us, it is how God makes it possible to obey Him and live a holy life before Him, baptism does nothing for the heart. to recieve Jesus as our savior it requires faith, to recieve God's Spirit it requires faith, our salvation is in Christ and His shed blood alone, baptism is a work and the bible is plain we r saved by faith not works. to say that baptism is faith is a stretch it is obedience a works

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

If one truly repents, he or she will be baptized. However, baptism itself is an act, and cannot bring salvation.

 

[Terral]

Hi schmidtp61 and Cweb:

Schmidtp>> Baptisim = Salvation? I need some help with this. I don't think it's Biblical. Yes Jesus told the disciples to go out and baptise but I said that He was the way to eternal life and didn't mention baptisim. I am not anti baptisim in any way, just want some thoughts on this. Thanks, Pat

Cweb >> baptism is the metaphor for being cleansed of worldly sins and living from that day forward in the Christ.

No, water baptism does not equal Salvation today. I certainly wish that folks would quote the Bible on such important maters as one’s salvation. John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve all preached repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38), according to the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23, 9:25, 24:14, Acts 8:12. That is the gospel message that Israel rejected. Do we remember that they crucified the King and scattered the apostles? Many people fail to realize that the Apostle Paul came along later in Acts 9, and Christ revealed to him ‘the gospel I preach among the Gentiles’ (Gal. 2:2). Paul calls our gospel the ‘gospel to the uncircumcised.’ Gal. 2:7. He writes,

“For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” Gal. 1:11+12.

The gospel we preach for salvation today is not the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ of the Four Gospels and Acts. Do you preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand?” Matt. 4:17? No. Repentance and the water baptism you are talking about are part of THAT gospel message. Why did they baptize in water?

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” Mark 1:4.

Do you see anything wrong with that picture? Can you tell me why Christ would later die on the cross? That’s right, so that your sins could be forgiven by God’s grace through faith in ‘that’ good news. Paul’s gospel is about “Christ and Him Crucified.” 1Cor. 2:2. Our redemption is in His Precious Blood. Eph. 1:7. You cannot go around adding works to that good news message. See Rom. 4:4-6. Paul specifically says that He was not sent to baptize, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 1Cor. 1:17. He says,

“For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” 1Cor. 1:21.

Paul says that there is only ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) for us today. That is the one baptism by the one Spirit that places you into the one body. That one body is the ‘body of Christ’ on the cross at Calvary. When you believe the gospel, then the Holy Spirit seals you into His body on the cross. Then, when He died, then you died with Him. When God raised Him from the dead, then He raised you up with Him, and seated you in the heavenly places in Christ. Eph. 2:6. Paul writes,

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” 1Cor. 12:13.

“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” Gal. 3:26+27.

We are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works today (Eph. 2:8+9), according to Paul’s gospel. 1Cor. 15:3+4. Any water baptism would be a second baptism, and Paul says there is only one. We cannot borrow precepts from the gospel of the kingdom and add them to Paul’s gospel. That creates a counterfeit gospel (Gal. 1:6) that has no power to save. And nobody wants to stand in front of God and be charged with passing out counterfeit gospels to others. We are members of the ‘body of Christ.’ Eph. 4:12. Not members of the Kingdom here on earth.

God bless,

Terral

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Jews were still around even when Paul wrote that. In fact, they're still around today. It just doesn't make sense

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Baptism.html[/font]



[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The practice of baptism as a religious symbol did not begin with Jesus. Baptism, which means literally the immersion in water, was practiced among the people of the Old Testament as well as the people who belonged to pagan religions. The universal meaning of baptism is that of "starting anew," of dying to an old, way of life and being born again into a new way of life. Thus, baptism was always connected with repentance which means a moral conversion, a "change of mind," a change in living from something old and bad to something new and good. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus, in the Gospel we find John the Baptist baptizing the people as a sign of repentance in preparation for the Kingdom of God which was coming to men with Christ the Messiah. Christ himself was baptized by John not because he was sinful and needed to repent, but because in allowing himself to be baptized he showed that indeed he was God's "Beloved Son," the Saviour and Messiah, the "Lamb of God who takes upon himself the sins of the world" (See Mt 3, Mk 1, Lk 3, Jn 1-3). [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Christian Church the practice of baptism takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth. It becomes very specifically the act of a person's death and resurrection in and with Jesus. Christian baptism is man's participation in the event of Easter. It is a "new birth by water and the Holy Spirit" into the Kingdom of God (Jn 3:5). [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Baptism in the Church begins with the rejection of Satan and the acceptance of Christ. Before being baptized, a person -- or his sponsors or godparents for him -- officially proclaims the symbol of Christian faith, the Creed. Because the godparent speaks on behalf of the child, sponsors his entrance into the Church and "receives" the child out of the baptismal waters into the Church and cares for his spiritual life, the godparent himself must be a member of the Church. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the proclamation of faith, the baptismal water is prayed over and blessed as the sign of the goodness of God's creation. The person to be baptized is also prayed over and blessed with sanctified oil as the sign that his creation by God is holy and good. And then, after the solemn proclamation of "Alleluia" (God be praised), the person is immersed three times in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the "garments of salvation" symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the "new humanity" of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia" (Gal 3:27). [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In ancient times this procession was made from the baptistery to the church where the newly-baptized received Holy Communion at the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. Baptisms were normally done in connection with the Easter Liturgy; our present procession around the church building on Easter night is nothing more than our remembrance that we are baptized, that we have left the life of this world to enter the eternal life of the Risen Christ in the Kingdom of God. This new life is given to us in the life of the Church, most specifically in the Divine Liturgy. Before the baptismal procession and the reading of the Epistle and the Gospel is fulfilled in the reception of Holy Communion, however, the newly-baptized is given the gift of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Chrismation. [/font]

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

On salvation:

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_cleopa_personal_salvation.htm

Forgive me....

 

[SPALATIN]

If one truly repents, he or she will be baptized. However, baptism itself is an act, and cannot bring salvation.

Ah yes the Baptist answer. How then do you interpret 1 Peter 3:21-22 in which Peter states that "this Baptism now saves you"

Baptism is not an act but a sacrament and means of Grace by which the Holy Spirit cleanses you of your sins and saves you.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ah yes the Baptist answer. How then do you interpret 1 Peter 3:21-22 in which Peter states that "this Baptism now saves you"

Baptism is not an act but a sacrament and means of Grace by which the Holy Spirit cleanses you of your sins and saves you.

Its a hard truth to grasp. If one is able to be bapized but doesn't, its a sin. Likewise, if someone isn't able to be, they won't always go to hell. It's in the Bible.

 

[SPALATIN]

Its a hard truth to grasp. If one is able to be bapized but doesn't, its a sin. Likewise, if someone isn't able to be, they won't always go to hell. It's in the Bible.

Bizzle,

Have seen your answers to the same question on the Lutheran Forum. Will discuss with you there. I think it would be a much better place to discuss than on this forum anyways as there are too many differing views here which can be complicated and at times confusing.

 

[Stinker]

STOP!

Everyone knows that a verse is coming up. Before it does, we MUST know what works are being condemned in the New Testament, and what works are essential in the New Testament.

There are 2 sets of works that are condemned.

1. The Law of Moses
2. The works of the flesh


There is one set of works that are essential

1. The works of the New Testament
Includes (belief Jn.6:28-29), (faith Heb.11:6) along with repentance, confession, baptism, communion, giving as prospered, etc.

 

[Stinker]

"For by GRACE you have been saved (everybody see?) through (by means of) faith (not a DEAD faith James 2:26) and that not of yourselves (by no great sacrifice we offered) it is the gift of God; (GRACE) Grace is the 'gift' not faith. not as a result of works (Here he is talking about the works of the LAW of MOSES!) so that no one may boast. (Having kept all the sabbaths, etc.) For we are His WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS (works essential to the New Testament) which God prepared beforehand so that we would WALK in THEM (THEM are the works of the New Testament!) Ephesians 2:8-10 NASV

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Bizzle,

Have seen your answers to the same question on the Lutheran Forum. Will discuss with you there. I think it would be a much better place to discuss than on this forum anyways as there are too many differing views here which can be complicated and at times confusing.

Not sure if I may openly talk there yet. Feel free to PM me though

 

[PaladinValer]

There is the baptism of water and the baptism by desire.

Baptism, as accorded by the Councils, the Bible, and the Church, is required for salvation. However, one who wishes to be baptized yet never got the chance will be considered to have been baptized because his/her heart wished it.

 

[serendipity79]

Baptism is a personal symbol of cleansing oneself of sin. It is more of just a personal thing. if you are baptized or not baptized, it is more or less a symbol. it is the same for circumsision. it is all an earthly symbol to a human. The main thing is that you repent in your sinful nature and follow the law of God. you will not come out of the water and have some worldly changed feeling, it is just to help you realize that you are now living a life for christ and by his teachings.

 

[PaladinValer]

The how come the Early Church Fathers said otherwise?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Boy... we could argue this for days and days....

I will follow the Church... the Councils, the Church Fathers and the Saints....

Forgive me....

 

[SPALATIN]

Baptism is a personal symbol of cleansing oneself of sin. It is more of just a personal thing. if you are baptized or not baptized, it is more or less a symbol. it is the same for circumsision. it is all an earthly symbol to a human. The main thing is that you repent in your sinful nature and follow the law of God. you will not come out of the water and have some worldly changed feeling, it is just to help you realize that you are now living a life for christ and by his teachings.

Do you have scripture to back you up on this? I can find more scripture to the contrary.

Circumcision was more than just a symbol. It was an act of faith by the Parents of the boy that he was now part of the covenant God set up with Abraham. If it was just a personal thing they would probably have stopped it a long time ago and let it be up to the individual to have it done for themselves.


Baptism is something God does not something we do. And according to St. Peter it saves you.

Your argument produces no evidence, but rather an opinion.

 

[andy153]

Dear all,

there is more more confusion on the doctrine of baptism than on any other scriptural debate.

Is baptism necessary for salvation ?

Is it merely symbolic ?

At what age should we baptise ?

What method of baptism is correct ?

What of those who never receive baptism, yet believe ?

You would think that on such an important topic the word in scripture would be clear. The fact is, it is.

Men, scrupulous men, try to blind us from truth by adding to the word of God.

Instead of asking is baptism necessary, they ask if baptism is necessary for salvation. Leave the salvation question alone and only ask if baptism is necessary, the answer is clearly yes.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Why did John baptise in the river Jordan and not in a bath or tank of water ?

The river Jordan flows into the Dead Sea, as sinners were baptised confessing their sins, where did those sins go ? they went to the dead sea, that in which there was no life. The river can only flow one way, when your sins are there, they stay there.

As Jesus started his ministry he went to John to receive baptism from him, why ? certainly not for remission of sin, for he was spotless.

So what did Jesus have washed away if not sin ? The answer Sin !

Not internal sin but the external contamination from living in an unholy world.

All his life previous to baptism had been washed away, why do you think so much of it is not recerded in scripture ?

When Christ received baptism he left his old life behind, the first time he sees his mother after being baptised Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

She is still is mother but he now has eyes only for the cross.

The spirit shall not come and remain while we are in sin, or in the world.

Baptism does not bring new life it destroys the old, it is by fire that we are created anew. Yet without destroying the old the new cannot begin.

Is baptism necessary YES

Is it necessary for salvation ? scripture says YES

Does baptism = salvation ? NO

It is a part of the journey towards rebirth and salvation.

My post is not to convince or convert only to share my belief.

with love and respect , andy153