Bad theology in CCM?

[ps139]

Ah, but how can one come to repentance without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? If one must choose salvation, have you not obtained salvation by works? You have now proved that a conservative christian will be turned off by this message.

Well, this looks like the first theology debate!!

 

[brettnolan]

Well our churches better work extra hard with our christian thespians! We need to produce more movies like Omega Code for the world to scoff at so that christians don't have to go to the movies and see the filth that the world offers. If music that the world creates stumbles you so much, would you be willing to lay all "entertainment" music on the altar and sacrifice it for the sake of your personal relationship with Christ?

You're missing the point. SOME people prefer entertainment that does NOT include secular influences that I'm sure you can agree are not beneficial. Promotion of gratuitous sex, drugs and violence for instance. The "world" is going to scoff at Christian-made ANYTHING...why are you so ready and willing to help them? Yes, a LOT of Christian entertainment is garbage...not ALL.

I have been to christian concerts, but I most certainly am not familiar with the songs and own none of their cds. Please provide me with a christian song by a mainstream "entertainment" band that has amazing edifying lyrics that are right-on. Elsewise, I will have to continue to find lyrics to the few songs that I do know.

Note that the thread is about bad theology in CCM, not mainstream music. I fully expect that you will find lyrics from the songs that you know. Nothing wrong with that. I was simply pointing out that you have painted all of CCM with one brush and now freely admit that you don't know that much about it after all.

By the way, most of the bands I like sold millions of records. Sabbath, Zeppelin, Guns n Roses, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins...no small names there. Not that I don't like smaller bands, but on the norm, I like bands that accomplished success by originality.

Again, I said I didn't know what you listen to, but some other posters have thrown out names of bands I have never heard of. That doesn't mean they're not good, it just means they don't get the run of your typical mainstream artist. Therefore, they are not competing well. Just pointing out that performance in the mainstream is not the only measure of good music.

And you are right about the television issue. Why don't we create more stations similar to TBN? I can't get enough!

I purposely did NOT use TBN if you didn't notice. PAX was the only network I could think off the top of my head. The use reruns of family friendly programming from the other network, thereby providing an alternative.

 

[Fire_Man]

"Bad Theology"?? How about NO theology. I often wonder if the motives of artists are pure??.. Come on lets face it most of these poeple do it for the wrong reasons and cover it with a ministers cloak. "Who are you"?? you ask. A Christian artist, a prodical son, saved at 12, disenchanted by hypocrosy by 15, drunken rock singer by 20, psalmist of God at 26. I recieved my call to serve God in music while still serving as a professional musician in the world. I've only had one other job than music and was told I was a natural talent as a writer in college. But upon recieving my call to serve God as a psalmist I immediatly cut all ties to the world of music and began to "study" the bible and church history.
Why did I say all that? To qualify what I am about to say and what I did say. Experience tells me these people are *not* called to do this or they would take it more seriously. They are simply in a career choice. Is that good or bad, no. But the time has come when psalmists will tap the power of God as in David's Tabernacle.

Clarification added--
We can not expect people who have wrong heart motives in the first place and no real maturity in spiritual things to write good theology, most of these people are way to young and immature in Christ, they are entertainers not preachers. But God is raising up people who are mature in Christ and have good theology look for them and support them and more of them will become mainstream.
---------------------
More later gotta go,
Jamey Tiffee

 

[brettnolan]

"Emptiness is loneliness and loneliness is cleanliness and cleanliness is Godliness and God is empty, just like me."

That's the Smashing Pumpkins, one of your favorite bands. It seems that they are slapping God in the face as well, yet you love them.

Oh, and watch out guys, don't make this into a theology thread....

It is a theology thread, sort of, since the issue is bad theology in Christian music.

BW makes an interesting point. I disagree with it, though. I would think that a true "conservative" Christian probably isn't going to listen to "rock and roll" with ANY message (see PreacherFergy).

I wouldn't consider the act of accepting Christ as a "work." Is believing a "work?" I don't know. If it is, then my opinion would be that we all (Christians and non-Christians) DO have salvation. If it would not even require belief, or a profession or faith, etc. Then if that's the case, then what was the point of the death and resurrection?

 

[brettnolan]

I would like to EXCLUDE stuff with NO theology at this point, if that's all right with everyone, as that's a completely different issue.

 

[blackwasp]

"Emptiness is loneliness and loneliness is cleanliness and cleanliness is Godliness and God is empty, just like me."

That's the Smashing Pumpkins, one of your favorite bands. It seems that they are slapping God in the face as well, yet you love them.

Oh, and watch out guys, don't make this into a theology thread....

Although I have heard that Billy Corgan is catholic, I'm safely assuming that he is not saved. Because he is not a christian, I am not going to expect him to pen lyrics that glorify God. He couldn't. Someone who claims to be a christian artist yet sullies it is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[blackwasp]

You're missing the point. SOME people prefer entertainment that does NOT include secular influences that I'm sure you can agree are not beneficial. Promotion of gratuitous sex, drugs and violence for instance. The "world" is going to scoff at Christian-made ANYTHING...why are you so ready and willing to help them? Yes, a LOT of Christian entertainment is garbage...not ALL.

Because in the department of music, the secular world has a right to scoff. I don't have a problem with people avoiding music that they think is inappropriate for them personally. I, however, do not take kindly to individuals dogmatically placing a ban on secular music for other christians because of unbiblical legalism. If an individual finds music containing profanity, sex, or drugs inappropriate, than I hope they are not viewing cable television or PG-13 movies, lest they be labeled a hypocrite. If the christian industry could find a way to market movies and make a profit, they would.

A year and a half ago in Louisville, I went to an outdoor christian festival. Toby Mac sick: ) headlined the evening and showed up before he went on stage in a Mercedes SUV. Why such luxury for a "minister"? I don't get it. If you are a christian musician, I think you should live a life similar to Keith Green. Check out his bio for a man truly after God's heart.

Note that the thread is about bad theology in CCM, not mainstream music. I fully expect that you will find lyrics from the songs that you know. Nothing wrong with that. I was simply pointing out that you have painted all of CCM with one brush and now freely admit that you don't know that much about it after all.

I know plenty about it, just not about specific groups.

Again, I said I didn't know what you listen to, but some other posters have thrown out names of bands I have never heard of. That doesn't mean they're not good, it just means they don't get the run of your typical mainstream artist. Therefore, they are not competing well. Just pointing out that performance in the mainstream is not the only measure of good music..

If a band attempts to play a modern popular style of music (pop-rock), is on a major/midmajor label (tooth and nail), and tours frequently, they have every chance to be well known and popular. A lot of the bands that were mentioned in other threads were not well known because they played a progressive style of music, refused to wield creativity, etc. Then again, others just simply aren't any good.

I purposely did NOT use TBN if you didn't notice. PAX was the only network I could think off the top of my head. The use reruns of family friendly programming from the other network, thereby providing an alternative.

What is the point of family friendly programming? So now the point is no longer to edify biblically, but rather to avoid the evils of the world?

 

[blackwasp]

It is a theology thread, sort of, since the issue is bad theology in Christian music.

BW makes an interesting point. I disagree with it, though. I would think that a true "conservative" Christian probably isn't going to listen to "rock and roll" with ANY message (see PreacherFergy).

I wouldn't consider the act of accepting Christ as a "work." Is believing a "work?" I don't know. If it is, then my opinion would be that we all (Christians and non-Christians) DO have salvation. If it would not even require belief, or a profession or faith, etc. Then if that's the case, then what was the point of the death and resurrection?

A conservative christian (such as myself) realizes that there is freedom in Christ. Christ came to fulfill the law, not to add additional requirements. We will never become closer to God by trying to accumulate points based on empty morality. Unless secular music causes me to stumble, I will continue to listen to it. (If that were the case, I would revert to hymns and avoid the garbage of modern christian music.)

Never said salvation didn't require belief or faith, but who is the author of that? The point of the resurrection is to redeem His children.
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

 

[Fire_Man]

Phil 4:8-9
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me-put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
NIV
Family Freindly programming falls in this verse. I think that if we are looking for a means outside of our own commitment to study the bible for edification, that is a greater sin than an Christian artist selling his talents for sole profit. A Christian artist after all is fulfilling the bible by using what God has given him to provide for his family and doing it in a righteous manner. But let me be very clear these people are *not* "tapping Heaven", so to speak, they are entertaining us and anything we gleen from that as edifying comes from the listener reaching out through that entertainer. But that is dangerous, because idolatrous people make connections to the people they are worshiping in the same manner. Which is what makes this topic such a "hot button" that always goes incomplete. Music is a spiritual "key" that unlocks our soul like nothing else on Earth when used flipantly doors to our soul can be opened and left unguarded. For the unregenerated heart this can prove to be fatal to the soul. For the saved this can lead to confusion and conflict.

Clarification Added----
In response to family friendly programming not being edifying, however true it is what it is entertainment. I quite frankly have no time for that mess and find it a complete waste of time. And you would be better off finding something edifying and will feed your spirit, but in and of its self F.F. programming is better than feeding on yet another worldly sitcom with a gay agenda. You should guard your heart or soul because what you feed on you will become.
-----------------------
Jamey Tiffee

 

[Fire_Man]

Sorry Blackwasp but "grace" is to empower you to live the way God intends for you to and not to empower you to live the way you have.
Rom 6:1-3
6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
NIV
Sorry but Christ raised the bar and empowered you and I to jump over it, not lowered it so that anyone can step over.
Jamey

 

[ps139]

Although I have heard that Billy Corgan is catholic, I'm safely assuming that he is not saved. Because he is not a christian, I am not going to expect him to pen lyrics that glorify God. He couldn't. Someone who claims to be a christian artist yet sullies it is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Why do you think he is not saved or not a Christian?

 

[ps139]

I wouldn't consider the act of accepting Christ as a "work." Is believing a "work?" I don't know.

How could it not be? Accepting Christ is an action. An act of faith. But then again you would only do ti if you have faith...
Sounds to me like the "chicken and the egg" question...

If it is, then my opinion would be that we all (Christians and non-Christians) DO have salvation. If it would not even require belief, or a profession or faith, etc. Then if that's the case, then what was the point of the death and resurrection?

I would not go that far...

 

[Fire_Man]

I wouldn't consider the act of accepting Christ as a "work." Is believing a "work?" I don't know. If it is, then my opinion would be that we all (Christians and non-Christians) DO have salvation. If it would not even require belief, or a profession or faith, etc. Then if that's the case, then what was the point of the death and resurrection?

Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

You were saying?
Jamey

 

[blackwasp]

Sorry Blackwasp but "grace" is to empower you to live the way God intends for you to and not to empower you to live the way you have.
Rom 6:1-3
6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
NIV
Sorry but Christ raised the bar and empowered you and I to jump over it, not lowered it so that anyone can step over.
Jamey

You first must show that this is a sin.

 

[brettnolan]

Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

You were saying?
Jamey

I don't know...what are YOU saying?

I'm saying that the act of placing your faith in God is not a work under the premise that we cannot be saved by works. It makes a circular argument, you see.

 

[brettnolan]

You first must show that this is a sin.

What are you guys talking about? Show WHAT is a sin?

Fire_Man, you lost me after your first post. I have no idea what your position is on the topic set forth in the opening post.

 

[blackwasp]

What are you guys talking about? Show WHAT is a sin?

Fire_Man, you lost me after your first post. I have no idea what your position is on the topic set forth in the opening post.

I believe Fireman was stating that it is wrong to listen to secular music.

 

[blackwasp]

Why do you think he is not saved or not a Christian?

I saw a post he had on his website where he was discussing his new Zwan album (which has some awesome songs on it!) and he repeated over and over again how Mother Mary had saved him. In the entire time, he never mentioned anything about Jesus. Christ tells us that no one comes to the Father except through Himself.

 

[ps139]

Here is a lyric from one of his new songs:
"Jesus, I've taken my cross/ All to leave and follow Thee"

Perhaps he also meant that Mary saved his life by leading him to Jesus, Who will save his soul?

 

[blackwasp]

Here is a lyric from one of his new songs:
"Jesus, I've taken my cross/ All to leave and follow Thee"

Perhaps he also meant that Mary saved his life by leading him to Jesus, Who will save his soul?

Is the new lyric referring to Billy Corgan? If he is, I'm all the happier, but I'm still a doubter.

How could Mary have led him to Jesus? This makes no sense...