Bad theology in CCM?

[ps139]

Now wait just a cotton-picking minute. You are on a christian website, in a christians only area, in a thread that discusses theology in music. If you do not agree with what I have posted please express your opinion and back it up. When did this stop being a discussion and turn into a joke?

Honestly...

Blackwasp - I've been in enough Catholic-Protestant debates on other parts of this forum, on other forums, and to me, the music forum is somewhere we can gather to talk about music, without having to know his or her opinion on certain doctrines. I like it that way. I like that I can sort of relax here, I certainly do plenty of debating on other parts of the site. And we're straying from the OP - we are discussing whether a certain musician is a Christian or not, well, we were discussing that, now its looking like "If you don't believe X about Y, then you do not know the Bible." And I don't want to get into that here. If you want to continue this discussion I am more than willing to via PM or in some other forum. But I do not want to do that here, please respect that.

 

[blackwasp]

Blackwasp - I've been in enough Catholic-Protestant debates on other parts of this forum, on other forums, and to me, the music forum is somewhere we can gather to talk about music, without having to know his or her opinion on certain doctrines. I like it that way. I like that I can sort of relax here, I certainly do plenty of debating on other parts of the site. And we're straying from the OP - we are discussing whether a certain musician is a Christian or not, well, we were discussing that, now its looking like "If you don't believe X about Y, then you do not know the Bible." And I don't want to get into that here. If you want to continue this discussion I am more than willing to via PM or in some other forum. But I do not want to do that here, please respect that.

I would simply like to know where you get the idea that Mary can lead someone to salvation. That is all, then I will stop inquiring.

 

[ps139]

I would simply like to know where you get the idea that Mary can lead someone to salvation. That is all, then I will stop inquiring.

The saints are praying for us in Heaven. The saints pray that we will be saved. Mary is a saint. Mary (or any saint) can take part in leading someone to Jesus, which is leading someone to salvation.

Mary does not save anyone, she helps.

I cannot make it more clear than that. Like I said, I'll be happy to talk with you via PM but I dont want to turn this thread into a debate.

 

[blackwasp]

The saints are praying for us in Heaven. The saints pray that we will be saved. Mary is a saint. Mary (or any saint) can take part in leading someone to Jesus, which is leading someone to salvation.

Mary does not save anyone, she helps.

I cannot make it more clear than that. Like I said, I'll be happy to talk with you via PM but I dont want to turn this thread into a debate.

I don't want to turn this into a debate either...I'm just looking for scriptural support.

 

[ps139]

Hey Blackwasp

Check out this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t98300

It was just started and is on the topic we are talking about. It would probably be good if you posted your questions there.

 

[ps139]

Someone just revived an old thread about Billy Corgan and his conversion. You guys might want to check it out it explains some of the questions raised in this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t89972

 

[eutychus]

Back to the original topic:
Though I agree more with the person (sorry, forget who you were, seeing as that was 6 pages of forum ago) that said that CCM has no theology more than saying that Christianity has bad theology. However, whenever theology IS mentioned, it's predominantly either watered-down or wrong. I don't want to cite lyrics, 'cause that takes way too much energy and I don't wanna give CCM that much of my attention. So anywho, if you wanna check out the lyrics to these examples, go to christianrock.net and follow the lyric search.

Momentum - Toby Mac > this song does the thing where one talks about Jesus except for the most important thing Jesus did, the audience being hinted as non-Christian and Christians alike.

Softer to Me - Relient K > this song is where many "Christian" songs end up going: talks a lot about life and what's going on without even talking about God. Yes, the Christian theological perspective on life. In this song, it's bleak. In other songs, it's giddy. Either way, the attributes of God described in the song are scant.

Mighty Good Leader - Audio Adrenaline > ahh, the thing I hate most about watered-down Christian theology: Jesus is my homeboy. Yes, in songs such as this, you'll find that Jesus doesn't have the title of Lord of Lord, King, of Kings, Alpha and Omega, Emmanuel, Great I Am, Living God, Redeemer or Ancient of Days. Jesus is only seen in the capacity of "Friend." Isn't that a nice thing to tell somebody about your Saving Grace? Oh, and I shant even go into the main message of the song about the second coming of Christ and sugar-coated eschatology.

Yes, friends, these are just a few examples of the pansified theologies on which the Christian subculture thrives.

 

[brettnolan]

Back to the original topic:
Though I agree more with the person (sorry, forget who you were, seeing as that was 6 pages of forum ago) that said that CCM has no theology more than saying that Christianity has bad theology. However, whenever theology IS mentioned, it's predominantly either watered-down or wrong. I don't want to cite lyrics, 'cause that takes way too much energy and I don't wanna give CCM that much of my attention. So anywho, if you wanna check out the lyrics to these examples, go to christianrock.net and follow the lyric search.

Momentum - Toby Mac > this song does the thing where one talks about Jesus except for the most important thing Jesus did, the audience being hinted as non-Christian and Christians alike.

Softer to Me - Relient K > this song is where many "Christian" songs end up going: talks a lot about life and what's going on without even talking about God. Yes, the Christian theological perspective on life. In this song, it's bleak. In other songs, it's giddy. Either way, the attributes of God described in the song are scant.

Mighty Good Leader - Audio Adrenaline > ahh, the thing I hate most about watered-down Christian theology: Jesus is my homeboy. Yes, in songs such as this, you'll find that Jesus doesn't have the title of Lord of Lord, King, of Kings, Alpha and Omega, Emmanuel, Great I Am, Living God, Redeemer or Ancient of Days. Jesus is only seen in the capacity of "Friend." Isn't that a nice thing to tell somebody about your Saving Grace? Oh, and I shant even go into the main message of the song about the second coming of Christ and sugar-coated eschatology.

Yes, friends, these are just a few examples of the pansified theologies on which the Christian subculture thrives.

I'm sorry eutychus, but these, in my mind would better be used as examples of why CCM is about MORE than just the same old recylced garbage that most of the anti-CCMer's are complaining about.

Generally, they are wanting music that relates to REAL life, not just the feel good warm fuzzy Christian music that you can hear at church.

Specific to your examples...should every song tell the ENTIRE gospel story? Is there not more material in the Bible to work with? Does God not meet us where we are?

What's wrong with confronting issues from a Christian perspective in song without mentioning God or Jesus or any of the other names you used? The message remains the same. Furthermore, if you're trading CCM for secular because of the reasons you stated, why then would you go to the secular world? Not only are you not getting any of the stuff that you say CCM is missing, you are, for the most part, getting the polar opposite.

Is Jesus, NOT our friend? I guess the old standard, "What A Friend We Have in Jesus" is a horrible hymn. Is there a problem with someone viewing Christ as their friend? Is there a greater love shown than one laying down his life for his FRIENDS? As opposed to his "save-ee's."

It seems to me that if more CCM was the way you described it, fewer people in this forum would have a problem with it.

 

[ab1385]

Why is judging somehing as secular music not judging the salvation of the singer/band? Saying its wrong/we shouldnt listen to it?

I think one of the things with music, at least with me, is that I often listen to the music, rather than paying attention to the words all the time. Seeing as (in MY opinion) most christian music only sells because it is christian music and on average requires a lot less talent to sell, I prefer to listen to secular, and again in my opinion, better music.

In order for me to like CCM, it has to have a really strong good message, so that I can listen to it and contemplate its meaning, the emotions involved, and what it means to me about God. A good example fo this is Thief by Third Day.

The problem (or one of them) that I have with CCM is that it tends to be very generic and formulaic. Standard guitar chords, standard riffs, percussion, and most importantly lyrics. Most CCM, as far as Ive listened to it, does not seem to be from the heart. Lyrics are made to sound good, rather than to have deep meaning. I get the feeling that CCM is about what the band thinks the audience wants to hear, rather than what they really feel. And of course, there is the case where people take bible verses and turn them into a song by putting it to music. There is nothing personal about this at all!

As to bad theology, I guess it tends to be individual cases, rather than a general theme. Probably becase they want the lyrics to sound good, and haven't really thought that deeply about what it is they're trying to say.