Backsliding

[LouisBooth]

"THAT DOESNT "change the description..."
i didnt redefine anything. "

Yes you did. Use the correct words then. When hades is used it is more applicable to say hell, when shehol is used, its not.

"i already said that yes abraham was accounted as rightouse.
but was he washed clean of his sins?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! "

Umm..what do you think being righeous means? being clear of sin in God's eyes. ie RIGHT WITH GOD.

"no man was cleansed from the natural moral uncleanliness untill jesus' blood was shed. only jesus' blood washes white as snow. "

So now you're saying God's ablitity to forgive is bound by time? I don't think so.

"SIN CANNOT BE TAKEN AWAY WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD. "

I agree, but you don't get what I'm saying. We are in the same situation. We have hope in the promice, just like abraham did.


"ok, in all seriuosness, this doesnt imply bodily, moral, cleanliness or purity like WE CHRISTIANS CAN HAVE TODAY.
"

and I disagree, I think it does. God viewed him as righteous..I sugguest you look up the meaning of that word first.


"but i simply dont believe you will. "

Then you should already beieve, because I have.


"the law is the only thing can condemn you to die?

the gentiles had no law. they were never ever under it. "

What? Yes, they were. EVERYONE is under the law, read romans.


"simply that we still have the free-will to do as we please, to choose to turn back to a hell bound life.
i dont know why anyone would, im simply saying its possible. "

Funny how non_OSAS people say that. If it happens, then God isn't in control and Jesus' sacrifice wasn't once and for all. Those are the simple facts of the NON-OSAS case. If you want to adhere to that, go for it, but I won't.

 

[psalms 22.3]

just forget it.
im tired of this. godbless you and goodluck doing whatever god has called you to do.

 

[LouisBooth]

Same to you my friend, I hope you haven't gone away mad.

 

[psalms 22.3]

no, i am not mad.

 

[LouisBooth]

Sounded like you were in your last post. Okay, well glad to have talked to you and hope you learned as much as I did

 

[Ben johnson]

Sorry to have been so "absent", just upgraded my memory from 24m to 72m. OH MY it works SO MUCH BETTER!!! I just posted on this issue on LBMB, so if you'll forgive me I'll cut-and-paste:

The Bible contradicts "total depravity" many, many times. Let's define "TD" as "too-far-gone-to-ever-come-to-God-in-any-way-shape-or-form". THus, God must HELKUO-DRAG you to salvation, quite against (or disregarding) your own will. This becomes "predestined-election", where it is GOD who saves some, and GOD who ALLOWS OTHERS TO PERISH (for reasons only He understands). HIS choice, not ours.

But salvation is always presented as two things: God's undeserved, unearned gift-of-grace, which must be RECIEVED by us. Can we, sinful lost Humans, MAKE that choice to receive? CERTAINLY. Romans 1 says that God is revealed to all men, "so they are therefore without excuse". John1:12 says that "all who RECEIVE Him become His children". Romans 10 says that "Faith (unto salvation) comes from HEARING (the word of God)". Obviously the Word is capable of creating a conviction in the listener's heart, and it is THAT CONVICTION that is the source of "SAVING-FAITH" * , not a "unilaterally-installed-saving-faith-gift-from-God".

One thing that prevents the persistence of the "predestined-election" theology, which is essentially the same as "total depravity", is the fact that GOD CALLS ALL MEN. I leave it to you to look up Rom5:18 (where both "all men" is the same "Pas Anthropos" in Greek), 2Pet3:9, 1Tim2:1-4.

Some say "it doesn't really matter whether you believe this or not"---but I think it does. Salvation is FELLOWSHIP WITH/IN/THROUGH Jesus. That simple. Salvation is not a "one-time-event", but a LIFETIME WALK. Which means, salvation is quite rejectable. Salvation cannot be "lost", but it can be "thrown away" (see Heb3). It is possible to once be saved, and then become unsaved. (Scriptures upon request) This becomes very critical to our entire Spiritual walk, and our very eternity.

The Calvinist will complain: "But YOU didn't choose HIM, HE chose YOU!" Jn 15:16. (YEAH, now read verse 6 in the same chapter! Salvation is "abiding in Him", FELLOWSHIP!) To understand this, please read Matt22:1-14. Do you understand the POINT of the parable? By the end, EVERYONE had been called, but only those who ANSWERED becaome the "chosen"!

We did not choose Him, He chose us, in the sense of His complete and sufficient sacrifice on the Cross. All that is required for our salvation, HE DID ON THE CROSS.

We chose Him to our salvation, in the sense of us surrendering our wills to His, accepting Him as our LORD (Master)! "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord WILL BE SAVED!" Rom10:13 Gal2:20 Phil2:12-13 Rom10:9


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* There are apparently different KINDS of faith. Which is why I specified, "FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION". Paul very clearly says this kind of faith is from us. It is dishonest to contend that Eph2:8 says "saving-faith is the GIFT of God"---the subject of verses 8-9 is GOD'S GIFT OF GRACE, so that all four subsequent phrases ("through faith", "THAT not of yourselves", "IT is the gift of God", "(IT is) not as a result of works"), all four modify "GOD'S GIFT OF GRACE.

There also IS a kind of faith that God gives, see Rom12:3, 1Cor12:9; and it is the 1Cor verse that says this kind of faith may not be given to every believer...

 

[Ben johnson]

RE were people under the "Old COvenant" forgiven of their sins, certainly. Yes there "must be blood shed for the forgiveness of sins"---that's why they had sacrifices! Blood was shed for their forgiveness of sins. They were looking FORWARD to the COMING Messiah---and we look BACKWARD to the CAME (and soon to come again) Messiah. Jesus did not invalidate the Law, He completed it!

More on "Free Will":
I just don't see support of TD ("total depravity") in Ephesians 2. It says, "While we were dead in (doing) our transgressions, God made us alive toether with Christ (by grace have you been saved)". Does this dispute the idea of "free will"? No. "God showed His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (the ungodly)". Rom5:6-8. Jesus died for ALL men, ALL SINNERS/UNGODLY. Will ALL MEN go to Heaven? No. Only those who recieve the gift of salvation. Can we receive the gift of salvation "while we are dead in our transgressions"? THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO RECEIVE IT! Forgiveness and cleansing-from-sins is the result of "having-been-saved"---so only SINNERS can accept the gift of salvation. Which, by surrendering to Jesus, changes their hearts, which present themselves repentently to the Lord, and He forgives. 1Jn1:9

There are so many other verses that plainly speak of "falling-from-salvation", such as James 5:19-20 ("Death" is "thanatos", "physical-death-with-implication-of-Hell", soul is "psyche/psuche", same word as in Rev20:4; contrast this with James 2:16, "spirit" is "pneuma" {ghost} and death is "nekros" {physical death}). Then there is 2Pet2, where the "False prophets/teachers seek to entice those who have TRULY ESCAPED ("Ontos Apofuego") 2:18; and the "truly-escaped, TRUE KNOWLEDGE ("epignosis") of the LORD and SAVIOR ones fall from salvation. "Far better to never have KNOWN the way of salvation..." (please see the "escapees" of 2Pet1:4 and then tell me that the "escapees" of 2:20 were not once saved!)

There is a whole theology, to which I do not hold, called "dispensationism". Denying that there were only two covenants (JESUS is the second!), they find at least seven DISPENSATIONS. One of which occurred between Jesus and the Pentecost---and it is to THIS that the letters of Peter and James are addressed. Thus---we can dismiss what the letter say about losing salvation!

Of course, that still leaves John (15:6 and 2:1:8-9 --- which, compared with 1:5:12, very much confirms the "fellowship nature" of salvation... "He who HAS the Son, has the life!" But "He who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT THE LIFE!" Any way John did NOT support OSNAS???) And Paul very much supports the "abiding-is-salvation" thing in many passages. I can give you a list of several places where Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude all worried about specific people losing salvation.

It would be a better case to make for "TD" or "Predestined-Election" with Romans 9--- but even that can be easily understood in the framework of "Free Will"...

(from the other message board) I have yet to see a Calvinist supply that kind of scripture backing to support their views. Hmmmmmm.....

Calvinists are sincere and godly people, most are saved. And many do quote Scripture---but interpreted. Like that Eph2:8 verse, where they take "and THAT not of themselves" to mean "FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION is not of yourselves". Which presents a clear contradiction with Rom10:17...

 

[Karen]

Hey Ben,

long time no see - sorry to butt in - just wanted to say hi!

Karen aka savinggrc

 

[Ben johnson]

Hey, Karen! Howahya??? Haven't been to your website for awhile, isit goin' all right???

LOVE your "avatar"...



(You should see my "Mr. Christmas 2000 lighthouse/table-fountain. I placed an old TV volume motor (that's how they used to do remote control! MOTORS!) in the lighthouse, with a white LED. It sweeps the room with a brilliant, blue-white beam about once every 6 seconds. And the little house has its windows lit with a yellow LED...)