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Babylon the Great?

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Suede

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stauron said:
Thanks for the warning. I noticed some odd stuff before, but really only used the link from a friend to that comparison.

I subscribe much more closely to solochristo. (www.solochristo.com)

The webmaster is not a full preterist, but the rest of the statement of faith (SOF) is pretty much where I am.

The SOF is a great tie back to the OP because it has some great stuff about the apostates from Israel being the harlot and Babylon.
Stauron,

You're welcome, Christadelphians can be 'sneaky' at times, snobs most of the time. Be warned. I was fairly confident you weren't one, but you never can truly tell on the web. I will check out the solochristo site. Another interesting site I came across was a site by the denomination The Disciples of Christ. I disagree with their over all theology, they believe water immersion is required for salvation, but I was very surprised to see a denomination as a whole have a partial Preterist stance. I didn't know that about them.

http://www.bible.ca/rapture.htm

The rest of their False Doctrine/Apologetic stuff is pretty helpful too. Take care,

SUEDE
 
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Hidden Manna

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The Old Testament prophet prophesied about Israel being restored after they came out of Babylon 70 years after 586 B.C. not 2000 AD and counting as futurist say. This proves that the Preterist view is the only view that makes sense. Daniel’s along with John’s vision completed all scripture for the end of the world of the Old Covenant age.

Herod’s Temple being twice the size as Solomon’s Temple, was a fulfillment of the latter house being greater then the former house.

Haggai 2:9
"The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. "And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts."

It was this place that Jesus came and brought peace through His blood.

All of these OT Prophets lived before the Babylonians destroyed the Jerusalem Temple in 586 B.C.. Judah's leading citizens were exiled to Babylonia far to the northeast, leaving only a remnant in the country. The Babylonian exile was one of the great crises in Israel's history. People questioned how God could permit the brutal destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of Israel's homeland. Nevertheless, the prophet Ezekiel told the exiles that even though Israel seemed as lifeless as a field of dry bones, God would revitalize the people and take them home again (Ezekiel 37:1-14).

A turning point came when Cyrus, king of Persia, conquered Babylonia. In 538 B.C., Cyrus declared that the exiles, now known as Judeans or Jews, could return to their country. Some of the exiles chose to remain in Babylonia, but others returned and began the slow task of reconstruction. Urged on by prophets such as Haggai and Zechariah, whose writings appear in the Old Testament, the people eventually established a new temple and rebuilt Jerusalem. The scribes Ezra and Nehemiah called for renewed commitment to the laws and traditions of Israel that were being assembled into the form in which we now have them in the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Together, the temple and the law became the two institutions that gave the people their distinct identity while living under Persian domination.

A significant change began when Alexander the Great swept down from Macedonia and Greece to conquer Palestine in 330 B.C. Alexander envisioned a grand world city in which people would not belong primarily to a given tribe or local community, but to the Greek Empire. The new vision of one world city differed significantly from the conviction that Israel was God's chosen people. Some of the Jewish people liked the new vision and began adopting Greek customs, but others rebelled and insisted that to do so would be to commit apostasy. The governor of that region tried to suppress the revolt by forbidding observance of Israel's law and by turning the Jerusalem temple into a shrine that he dedicated to Zeus in 167 B.C. A group of Jews led by Judah Maccabee successfully recaptured the temple and purified it in 164 B.C. Soon they regained control of the country and set up their own government, the first independent government since Jerusalem had been conquered by the Babylonians four hundred years earlier.

This Jewish kingdom endured for a century. In 63 B.C. a Roman general conquered Jerusalem and brought Jewish independence to an end. The Romans eventually designated a man named Herod to rule Palestine. An ambitious and masterful politician, Herod accommodated devout Jews by transforming the modest Jerusalem temple that had been rebuilt after the exile into an imposing structure of gleaming white limestone adorned with gold. At the same time he built cities named for Caesar Augustus that contained stadiums, theaters, and temples to the emperor.

Jeremiah

Jer 1-25 recounts Jeremiah's prophetic words and actions. Jeremiah prophesied in and around Jerusalem before the city fell in 587 BC. While he is still a young man, God calls Jeremiah to prophesy. Jeremiah condemns those who trust the Temple to deliver them from judgment against their sins (7:1-15). Jeremiah compares God's dealings with his people to a potter molding the clay. After smashing a jar to portend destruction, he is arrested (18:1--20:6). Poignant laments appear in this section (e.g., 20:7-12).

Jer 26-45 contain memoirs of Jeremiah's life. The scribe Baruch reads Jeremiah's prophecies in the Temple, but the king burns the scroll. Later Jeremiah wears a yoke on his neck to show people they should submit to Babylon. Eventually he is arrested. When the Babylonians capture Jerusalem, Jeremiah remains in Judah for a time before being taken to Egypt.

Jer 46-51 concludes with oracles against foreign nations and another account of the fall of Jerusalem.


Isaiah

Isa 1-39 contains oracles by Isaiah and narratives about his life. Isaiah lived in and around Jerusalem during the late seventh century BC, when the Assyrians were conquering the northern part of the country. The first part of the book summarizes the prophet's message (Isa 1-5). He condemns Israel's injustice and misguided trust in ritual, and calls the people to repent. He compares the sins of Judah to fine vineyard producing only wild grapes. Isaiah is called by God through a vision of the heavenly throne room. He tells King Ahaz not to fear pressure from Israel and Syria for they will fall to the Assyrians (Isa 6-8). Isaiah promises that God will raise up a righteous king and judge the nations that oppose Israel (Isa 9-35). God delivers Jerusalem from the Assyrians and heals King Hezekiah of an illness, although Hezekiah's naive trust in the Babylonians portended the future fall of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 40-66 offers encouragement to those living at the end of the exile. Those who have gone into exile can take comfort (40:1) for their time of servitude will end when the Persian king Cyrus conquers the nations (45:1). God is Lord over all.


Zechariah

Post-exilic prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel, a triumphant king humbly riding a donkey, and God's final victory.


God's anointed leaders are like
two olive trees
(Zech 4:11-14)

Zechariah prophesied in Jerusalem about 520-518 BC, not long after some Jews had returned from exile in Babylon. He was a contemporary of Haggai.

Zech 1-8 consists of visions of Jerusalem's restoration. A vision of a divine horeseman announces that God will unsettle the nations and restore Jerusalem. Another vision first depicted Joshua the high priest dressed in filthy clothing, which represented Israel's guilt. But Joshua was then given fine clothing, symbolizing restoration. According to Zechariah, God would send a Davidic servant known as the "Branch," who would usher peace and prosperity so that people would invite each other to sit under their vines and fig trees. The visions depicted the community's leaders, Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the governor, as olive trees, since they were the anointed of the Lord.

Zech 9-14 contains oracles about the coming day of the Lord's victory. These oracles differ in tone and content from the visions. They announce the coming of God the warrior and a king who will bring peace. Faithless leaders among the people are rebuked. The book culminates with an oracle concerning the day when the Lord will triumph over Israel's adversaries, and all who remain will worship God in Jerusalem.


Ezekiel

Ezek 1-32 contains warnings of judgment. Ezekiel is a priest who is among those taken into exile in 597 BC, a decade before the Babylonians destroy Jerusalem. His prophecies are given from Babylonia. The first part of the book contains oracles and actions of Ezekiel from his call in 593 BC until the fall of Jerusalem in 587. Ezekiel begins to prophesy after a vision in which he saw God's throne chariot and was given a scroll to eat (Ezek 1-3). He has visions of idolatrous worship in the Temple and of God's glory departing from Jerusalem (Ezek 8-11). He calls people to turn from sin. When his wife dies he bears it silently, as the people will have to bear the loss of Jerusalem.

Ezek 33-45 contains promises of restoration. After the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BC, the prophet promises that God will shepherd his people (Ezek 34) and restore them, like dry bones coming back to life (Ezek 37). A vision of a restored city and sanctuary concludes the book.


Hosea

Hosea prophesied in the northern kingdom of Israel in the eight century BC. He was a contemporary of Amos.

God tells Hosea to marry a prostitute to dramatize how Israel has become faithless by worshiping other gods. Their children are named "Jezreel" (which was a battlefield), "Not Pitied," and "Not my people" to show how God will judge Israel. Yet there is hope that God will restore the people, so that "Jezreel" will become a sown field and the other children will be called "Pitied" and "My People" (Hos 1-3). Oracles of judgment and hope appear throughout the remainder of the book.

Micah

Book of a southern prophet which foretells the fall of Jerusalem and calls the people to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with God.


Do justice, love kindness, walk humbly with God
(Mic 6:6)

Micah prophesied in the southern kingdom of Judah. He lived in the late eighth century BC when the Assyrians were conquering the northern kingdom. He was a contemporary of Isaiah.

Micah declares that God will judge Samaria and Jerusalem because of unjust social practices, false teachers, and corrupt leaders. Yet he also offers hope that God will preserve a remnant of the people. Like Isaiah, Micah envisioned a time when people would beat their swords into plowshares. In the new era of peace, people would be able to sit under their own vines and fig trees without fear. One oracle promises that from Bethlehem will come a future ruler of Israel. The prophet denounces dishonesty and violence. God does not seek burnt offerings for sins, but that people do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God (6:6-8). Micah concludes with a vision of restoration.

Mic 6:6 - To do justice


Haggai

Short prophetic book urging those who returned from exile to rebuild the Temple.


The temple was in ruins-Haggai
urged rebuilding

Haggai prophesied in Jerusalem about 520-515 BC, not long after some Jews had returned from exile in Babylon. He was a contemporary of Zechariah.

Haggai chides the people for allowing the Temple to remain in ruins while they themselves live in paneled houses. He warns that prosperity will not return until the Temple has been rebuilt (Hag 1). Urging the governor and high priest to pursue the work, Haggai declares that God will shake the heavens and earth, bringing the wealth of the nations to Jerusalem. The new Temple will be more splendid than the old one.

Malachi

A short prophetic book which condemns corrupt priests and promises that Elijah will return before the great day of the LORD.



The Lord's messenger is like a refiner's fire
(Mal 3:2)

Malachi prophesied in Jerusalem, probably in the fifth century BC.

Malachi first tells of God's love for Israel, then condemns the priests who have been unfaithful in their service and the people who have been unfaithful in marriage (Mal 1-2). The prophet announces that God will send a messenger to purify the people. God promises to receive those who repent and to spare those who serve him. Elijah is the one whom God will send to reconcile parents and children before the day of the Lord (4:5-6). The New Testament applies this promise to John the Baptist (Luke 1:17).

Mal 4:5-6 - Coming of Elijah


Events
Abraham and Sarah
2000-1700 B.C.
Israel's Exodus from Egypt
1275 B.C.
Reign of David Begins
1000 B.C.
Kingdom Divides into North and South
922 B.C.
Fall of Northern Kingdom
722 B.C.
Fall of Southern Kingdom
587 B.C.
Some exiles return from Babylonia
539 B.C.
Birth of Jesus
5 B.C.
Jesus' death and resurrection
A.D. 30


Is this a missing link in favor for Preterism? I've never read anything about it before. For the last month or so something in my mind keep coming back about all the scriptures from the old prophets futurist were throwing at me at another forum, and I thought that what they meant for Israel in 1948 was really the temple restored just after Israel came out of Babylon. As you have noticed most of these OT Prophets lived either before the Babylonian captivity, during or short after. Keep in mind that Daniel was there at the time and prophecy and vision was sealed up unto the time of end when John saw it open again, and then the end came in 70 AD., therefore no more prophecy about any future thing after 70 AD. in the scripture. Not to say that God will not reveal future things because I believe He does through the Holy Spirit.

What happened in 1948 with Israel becoming a nation was most likely Christian futurist World leaders in our time believing that scripture must still be fulfilled. This just goes to show man can make things happen according to what they believe. They could make everything according to their view of end-times happen

The way I see it. it is that the futurist are responsible for what happens over in Israel today if Israel becomes a Nuclear wasteland. We still have to lot of work to do before it is to late but just think what would happen if Christianity embraced full Preterism.
 
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thereselittleflower

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BrightCandle said:
If you look at ancient Babylon and ancient Rome it quickly becomes clear that there were are many similarities. Babylon was the Queen of the East in the time of the Hebrew Prophets; and Rome was the Mistress of the West in the first century when John wrote the book of Revelation. Babylon was called the Golden City; Rome also called herself the Golden City. The King of Babylon took the sacred vessels of the Jerusalem Temple away into Babylon; and so did Rome do also in 70 A.D., that can even now be seen illustrated in the carved sculptures of the triumphal Arch of Titus.

But key points brought out in Revelation 17 & 18 point out clearly that John was referring to Papal Rome, and not Pagan Rome, as the Mother of Harlots. Here is why: Pagan Rome persecuting the Church was no mystery, but a Christian Church (Papal Rome), calling herself the Mother of Christendom, and yet drunken with the blood of the saints--that is a mystery! Pagan Rome was built on the seven hills and and has ruled over large geographical regions politically, but Papal Rome, has history proves, ruled as a religio-political power, which professed to be Christian, but at the same time had the blood of millions of God's saints on her hands, which is why those still belonging to her were called to come out of her my people.

Finally, someone mentioned earlier in this thread, something about Sunday worship and its link to Babylon (Rome), history proves that Sunday worship in the Christian church has its beginnings and strongest promotion in, and by, the Church of Rome.


Brooks
Brooks, I know how popular this theory is in some circles, but it sounds like the stuff Jack Chick spouts. I have some interesting links that if people are inerested in, I would be happy to find.


Just to give you an hint though, Rome may sit on 7 hlls, but the Vatican is not in Rome. . .


Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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blessedbe said:
Somewhat off topic here, but not totally. The Ark of the Covenant....many people are desparately trying to find it, i suppose thinking it will prove Christianity correct. Do you suppose God destroyed it since it is no longer our covenant? I know there are alot of people that think that it is "still around" somewhere, probably the same people who think they can find Noah's Ark!! LOL Anyway, this just popped into my head as I read the last couple of posts. Which are very well written I might add! :)
Blessedbe

There is an archeologist who claims he found it after excavating tunnels leading from the temple . . they did not enter the chamber, but inserted a small camera probe and sawy what looked like the Ark of the Covenant. Now here is the interesting part . . there was a brown substance on the mercy seat . . they looked above it at the roof of the chamber, and that same brown substance was found there at a spot where the roof had cracked open, as if it had flowed down through the crack. They went and traced the exact location topside, and they found themselves up on top of Golgatha . . . :) They theorize that it was the spot of the Crucifixtion and that the blood of Jesus flowed down to the mercy seat when the earthquake occured and it split the rock. . .

Now, they claim that the Israeli government sealed up the room and will let know one in.

is this all true? I don't know. They claim it is . .

The name if I remember right is "Wyatt"

Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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I just want to say I have enjoyed reading through this thread. I am coming furuist background, but in my process of conversion to Catholicism, have come to realize that I need to better underestand other view points of eshcatology and I can no longer hold to what I did in the past.


Brightcandle

I just wanted to point something out tha I don't know if you are aware of or not.

Alexander Hislop is a favorite author from the 1800's among tranditional Adventists. He is the source of the Adventist teachings against Catholicism, linking our faith to ancient Babylon and such. This work is The Two Babylons and was considered a classic expert reference on the subject and went uncontested for over 100 yeras. It was heavily documented and footnoted. IT is still promoted on traditional Adventist sites as the difinitive work on the subject.

What you may not be aware of is that another more recent author, Ralph Woodrow modernized his work, I believe in teh 70's, and wrote Babylon Mystery Religion. He became an international expert in the subject, his book was translated into several languages and was even confused with Hislop's work. This book became the difinitive modern treatment on this subject.

What happened next was interesting. He had a friend who was an historian, who with other historians cautioned Woodrow that Hislep's work was full of error and encouraged him to research it well.

After a while, Woodrow gave in and did just that. He went to great effort to track down the original sources that Hislop used, but he found them all. After researching the issue afresh from Hislop's sources, he pulled his book at great cost to himself, from publication.

He then proceeded to write another book on the subject.

That one is called The Babylon Connection? a 128-page book with 60 illustration and 400 footnote references


You can read about it in Ralph Woodrow's own words here:

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology
http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/2babylons.htm

Another site to give further perspecitve on this is:

Did the Catholic Church Blend Paganism with Christianity?
http://davidmacd.com/catholic/were_catholics_pagan.htm


Hislop's work has been totally debunked, but his ideas and even his book is still in circulation and being promoted as factually true . . which is very sad.


I hope that understanding the origin of the beliefs of your church regarding the Catholic faith and Church, and how those origins grossly misrepresented the truth, will help you to be able to see that there is no foundation in these claims.

Some Adventists have already discarded his work and ideas as false.

Here is one such site

http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/mainwebpage.htm


I hope this is helpful. :)


Peace in Him!
 
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stauron

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thereselittleflower said:
I just want to say I have enjoyed reading through this thread. I am coming furuist background, but in my process of conversion to Catholicism, have come to realize that I need to better underestand other view points of eshcatology and I can no longer hold to what I did in the past.


You can read about it in Ralph Woodrow's own words here:

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology
http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/2babylons.htm


That stuff by Woodrow is quite good. I had heard about Hislop's book, but this sheds some interesting light.

I hope brightcandle comes out from under the bushel and sheds some light, too. I am still waiting to hear something about the law.
 
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Suede

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Stauron,

That is a good article, I've either seen that exact one, or others similar to it. I recall my Dispensational Days and how Hislop's book, though fairly old, was actually regularly quoted. I interestingly tracked down a copy and skimmed through it one day at a book store. The connections that Hislop makes are quite bad indeed and remind me of AntiChristians that try to link Jesus with pagan gods or mythical heroes. I think all in all it is SO paramount that Christians learn the History of Christianity. Not that I'm an expert on it, but I have at least read 3 books that survey Christendom as well as some of the Church Father's writings. I wish Christians would delve into their history more, that in itself would prevent things like Hislop's book and Messianic Judaism from rewriting history. Take care,

SUEDE
 
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stauron

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Suede said:
Stauron,

That is a good article, I've either seen that exact one, or others similar to it. I recall my Dispensational Days and how Hislop's book, though fairly old, was actually regularly quoted. I interestingly tracked down a copy and skimmed through it one day at a book store. The connections that Hislop makes are quite bad indeed and remind me of AntiChristians that try to link Jesus with pagan gods or mythical heroes. I think all in all it is SO paramount that Christians learn the History of Christianity. Not that I'm an expert on it, but I have at least read 3 books that survey Christendom as well as some of the Church Father's writings. I wish Christians would delve into their history more, that in itself would prevent things like Hislop's book and Messianic Judaism from rewriting history. Take care,

SUEDE
It is so interesting that you bring up history. I work with a guy (eric) that is fairly ignorant of history and Christianity in general. He is a professed believer. We were just talking about Finney and the impact he has had on modern worship and evangelism.

Eric had never even heard of Finney before and yet almost everything his church does is modeled after Finney and Eric even said that the ends justify the means. If emotionalism and music work for 1 guy, then who cares if there are 50 false converts as a results of your methods.

Eric has now started saying "that's something you get from history, huh?" as a joke every time we start talking now.

For preterism, Arthur Ogden has a commentary on Revelation that is ok as far as commentaries go (actually some of the last chapters are terrible), but has an introduction that is worth the whole book. It goes over some historical views and positions on some of the theological points that are great.
 
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Suede

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stauron said:
It is so interesting that you bring up history. I work with a guy (eric) that is fairly ignorant of history and Christianity in general. He is a professed believer. We were just talking about Finney and the impact he has had on modern worship and evangelism.

Eric had never even heard of Finney before and yet almost everything his church does is modeled after Finney and Eric even said that the ends justify the means. If emotionalism and music work for 1 guy, then who cares if there are 50 false converts as a results of your methods.

Eric has now started saying "that's something you get from history, huh?" as a joke every time we start talking now.

For preterism, Arthur Ogden has a commentary on Revelation that is ok as far as commentaries go (actually some of the last chapters are terrible), but has an introduction that is worth the whole book. It goes over some historical views and positions on some of the theological points that are great.
Stauron,

Yes, Church History is important to know, even if it's just in general. Oh well, I guess it's something not always thought of. That's actually true of many topics, not just religion. Well, I'm a History Major, so maybe I'm just speaking out on something I personally enjoy. I'm sure Math Majors say there's not enough Mathametical Knowledge!! I'm unfamilar with Arthur Ogden, so I will have to look into him. I'm actually reading, aside from Government Textbooks for school, 'End-Time Visions' by Richard Abanes. He's a Cult Expert, his book on the history of Mormonism is hands down the best one out there. Anyways, 'End Time Visions' covers all the odd views of cults and other faiths in regards to The End. Very good, his treatment on PreMillennialism is quite interesting. Abanes is a Futurist ultimately, but he and others really leave the door wide open for Preterism. Take care,

SUEDE
 
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BrightCandle

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stauron said:
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That stuff by Woodrow is quite good. I had heard about Hislop's book, but this sheds some interesting light.

I hope brightcandle comes out from under the bushel and sheds some light, too. I am still waiting to hear something about the law.

Hi All!

By the way, I have not been hiding my light under a "bushel", I raise funds for our SDA charity that provides Christian media for those with sight impairments. I just got back from a 24 day fundraising trip to Alaska. So I guess you could say that my light has been out in the Alaskan "bush" for awhile!

I'll in town for a few weeks, so look for some new posts soon.

Brooks
 
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stauron

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BrightCandle said:
Hi All!

By the way, I have not been hiding my light under a "bushel", I raise funds for our SDA charity that provides Christian media for those with sight impairments. I just got back from a 24 day fundraising trip to Alaska. So I guess you could say that my light has been out in the Alaskan "bush" for awhile!

I'll in town for a few weeks, so look for some new posts soon.

Brooks


Hello Brooks,

I have been busy too. Just wondering (and bumping) about this thread...

stauron
 
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BrightCandle

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Just wanted to point out that SDAs do not rely on any one source for their historical/biblical view of the Church of Rome being the "harlot of Babylon". We look at the long view of history, which is why we are called "historicists", as opposed to futurists or preterests. As early as the 12th century the Waldenses, who resided for the most part in the mountain valleys of Italy, identified the Church of Rome as the Antichrist of I John 2-8, and the first beast of Rev. 13, and the woman of Rev. 17, and as Babylon of Rev. 17 as well. The majority of the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century also came to this belief, and with good reason as we know most of the Reformers themselves fullfilled the prophesy of Rev.17, where it says that the "woman" was "drunk with the blood of the saints", and "the blood of the martyrs."

Brooks
 
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Suede

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Hey BrightCandle,

I think it's important to let the Bible supercede history, particularly in the case of Babylon. It's quite clear using the Bible that Jerusalem was the harlot. The RCC idea came about much later on and in the Protestant tradition in an attempt to 'demonize' them. But Protestants are not blameless either as far as bloodsed goes. One simple thing is that one of the charges against the harlot was that it had the blood of PROPHETS on her hands. This was levied ONLY against the apostate Jews and their city, Jerusalem. Though the RCC has done wicked things at times, this in no way makes it the harlot of Babylon. Note,

Rev 17:6 & Rev 18:20 "I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Matthew 23:37 ""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

1 Thes 2:14-15 ". . . the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."

Luke 11:50-51 "Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all."

The Preterist view IS the superior view since it is backed Biblically. This is another reason to adopt it for eschatology. At least in my opinion, take care,

SUEDE
 
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BrightCandle

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SUEDE:

From my understanding, all three major views in interpreting Bible prophesy use the Bible as there basis, the difference in the historicist view is that they don't try to "make" every prophecy fit in the past in the future. Historicists just look at all of the Bible texts from the OT and NT, in context, as compared to the complete record of history past, present, those that there seems to be no fullfillment yet, are left the future. This a more balanced approach, because it is based on a greater sum total of evidence, both Biblical and historical.

As far a Biblical backing for what and who is "Babylon" in the Bible. The overwhelming evidence from the OT and the NT is that "Babylon" has always been used to represent apostate religion. From origin in the founding of ancient Babylon by Nimrod to present day Roman Catholicism. Jerusalem and the Jews did indeed kill the prophets of their time, but they were still referred to by Jesus as those who "worship in spirit and truth" and Paul referred to them as having the "oracles of God". The context of Rev. 17 and 18 in set in the scenario of the last days which could really reach back to time of Paul when he said that the "mystery of iniquity is already at work". The Jews themselves became the object of persecution by Pagan Rome during the time of Christ and have continued to this day. But, I will say that in a general sense "Babylon" in has a dual application as referring to all apostate religions. But the primary application of Rev. 17 and 18 is to Roman Catholicism which as been the dominate persecuting power of other Christians and other faiths for the last 1,500 years. To say that Jerusalem fullfilled Rev. 17 and 18 leaves totally in the dark as what role and who is "Babylon" in our time, which are the last days.

Brooks
 
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Suede

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BrightCandle


+++From my understanding, all three major views in interpreting Bible prophesy use the Bible as there basis, the difference in the historicist view is that they don't try to "make" every prophecy fit in the past in the future. Historicists just look at all of the Bible texts from the OT and NT, in context, as compared to the complete record of history past, present, those that there seems to be no fullfillment yet, are left the future. This a more balanced approach, because it is based on a greater sum total of evidence, both Biblical and historical.+++


I still see the ultimate failure in both Historicists and Futurists is that both still require extra Biblical interpretation, despite the fact that none is needed. That’s what gets me. Another problem is that Historicists and Futurists will have to ignore blatant time indicators in the NT. When we look at the very first verse of Revelation, we read,



“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;…”(Rev 1:1)



It’s beyond reason and logical that this would extend 2,000 years, especially when you look at other time indicators in the Bible. This is why there is no real balance to either of the opposing views.


+++As far a Biblical backing for what and who is "Babylon" in the Bible. The overwhelming evidence from the OT and the NT is that "Babylon" has always been used to represent apostate religion.+++




Yes, this is true. Apostate Israel, God’s very own nation, denied her saviour and were apostate. THAT is mystery Babylon.



+++ From origin in the founding of ancient Babylon by Nimrod to present day Roman Catholicism.+++



Though the RCC do some odd things, the fact is they have never denied Jesus as Lord and Saviour.



+++Jerusalem and the Jews did indeed kill the prophets of their time,+++



And they alone did this. Not the RCC, or any other group. They exclusively meet this description.



+++ but they were still referred to by Jesus as those who "worship in spirit and truth"+++



No they weren’t. Those were the followers of Jesus, not the apostate Jews or Jews in general. Jesus also called them vipers, hypocrites and an adulterous generation.



+++and Paul referred to them as having the "oracles of God".+++



So? This in no way removes them from being the harlot of Babylon.

+++The context of Rev. 17 and 18 in set in the scenario of the last days which could really reach back to time of Paul when he said that the "mystery of iniquity is already at work".+++



Bingo.



+++The Jews themselves became the object of persecution by Pagan Rome during the time of Christ+++



Not really. They was actually an odd parasitic/host relationship between two. Rome allowed conquered lands to be remain intact for the most part, occupied, but intact. Persecution came later, notable around 66 AD. But both Rome and the Jews persecuted the Christians. Besides, only Israel was the nation of God at that time, only she could become a harlot in God’s eyes.



+++But, I will say that in a general sense "Babylon" in has a dual application as referring to all apostate religions.+++



In general yes. But, the harlot of Babylon does not. Jews and Israel are regarded as harlots when they sought after false gods. That’s a specific and exclusive charge.



+++But the primary application of Rev. 17 and 18 is to Roman Catholicism which as been the dominate persecuting power of other Christians and other faiths for the last 1,500 years.+++



Presupposition that Rome persecuted other Christians more then anyone else. What of Pagans, Islam or atheistic countries like Russia and China? They far outweigh the numbers killed by the RCC. Those killed at the hands of the RCC are small fry when compared with others.



+++To say that Jerusalem fullfilled Rev. 17 and 18 leaves totally in the dark as what role and who is "Babylon" in our time, which are the last days.+++



Presupposition that we are in the last days; the Bible states otherwise noting in Acts that the Last Days had fallen at that time.



We still must allow the Bible to overwrite and overrule all other things, particularly when it comes to its own interpretation. Take care,



SUEDE
 
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stauron

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Suede said:
BrightCandle


+++From my understanding, all three major views in interpreting Bible prophesy use the Bible as there basis, the difference in the historicist view is that they don't try to "make" every prophecy fit in the past in the future. Historicists just look at all of the Bible texts from the OT and NT, in context, as compared to the complete record of history past, present, those that there seems to be no fullfillment yet, are left the future. This a more balanced approach, because it is based on a greater sum total of evidence, both Biblical and historical.+++


I still see the ultimate failure in both Historicists and Futurists is that both still require extra Biblical interpretation, despite the fact that none is needed. That’s what gets me. Another problem is that Historicists and Futurists will have to ignore blatant time indicators in the NT. When we look at the very first verse of Revelation, we read,



“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;…”(Rev 1:1)



It’s beyond reason and logical that this would extend 2,000 years, especially when you look at other time indicators in the Bible. This is why there is no real balance to either of the opposing views.


+++As far a Biblical backing for what and who is "Babylon" in the Bible. The overwhelming evidence from the OT and the NT is that "Babylon" has always been used to represent apostate religion.+++




Yes, this is true. Apostate Israel, God’s very own nation, denied her saviour and were apostate. THAT is mystery Babylon.



+++ From origin in the founding of ancient Babylon by Nimrod to present day Roman Catholicism.+++



Though the RCC do some odd things, the fact is they have never denied Jesus as Lord and Saviour.



+++Jerusalem and the Jews did indeed kill the prophets of their time,+++



And they alone did this. Not the RCC, or any other group. They exclusively meet this description.



+++ but they were still referred to by Jesus as those who "worship in spirit and truth"+++



No they weren’t. Those were the followers of Jesus, not the apostate Jews or Jews in general. Jesus also called them vipers, hypocrites and an adulterous generation.



+++and Paul referred to them as having the "oracles of God".+++



So? This in no way removes them from being the harlot of Babylon.

+++The context of Rev. 17 and 18 in set in the scenario of the last days which could really reach back to time of Paul when he said that the "mystery of iniquity is already at work".+++



Bingo.



+++The Jews themselves became the object of persecution by Pagan Rome during the time of Christ+++



Not really. They was actually an odd parasitic/host relationship between two. Rome allowed conquered lands to be remain intact for the most part, occupied, but intact. Persecution came later, notable around 66 AD. But both Rome and the Jews persecuted the Christians. Besides, only Israel was the nation of God at that time, only she could become a harlot in God’s eyes.



+++But, I will say that in a general sense "Babylon" in has a dual application as referring to all apostate religions.+++



In general yes. But, the harlot of Babylon does not. Jews and Israel are regarded as harlots when they sought after false gods. That’s a specific and exclusive charge.



+++But the primary application of Rev. 17 and 18 is to Roman Catholicism which as been the dominate persecuting power of other Christians and other faiths for the last 1,500 years.+++



Presupposition that Rome persecuted other Christians more then anyone else. What of Pagans, Islam or atheistic countries like Russia and China? They far outweigh the numbers killed by the RCC. Those killed at the hands of the RCC are small fry when compared with others.



+++To say that Jerusalem fullfilled Rev. 17 and 18 leaves totally in the dark as what role and who is "Babylon" in our time, which are the last days.+++



Presupposition that we are in the last days; the Bible states otherwise noting in Acts that the Last Days had fallen at that time.



We still must allow the Bible to overwrite and overrule all other things, particularly when it comes to its own interpretation. Take care,



SUEDE

Especially telling is the OTS (Old Testement Scriptures) witness of "the Harlot". ONLY Israel has that "honor". Repetedly and exclusively.

As you said, extra-biblical interpretation is unnecessary, irrelevant and only serves to confuse.

The Bible clearly identifies for us the "mystery". It was mysterious in the sense that we english speakers think in that the details were nefarious and needed to be pieced together. But it was mostly a mystery in the biblical sense of not being revealed. It was not clear what the connection with Israel and Babylon was until John linked the Harlot with Babylon. Of course the stiff-necked rebells that he was talking about never got it because, on the simplest level, they didn't accept any of the "modern" revelation...
 
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Suede & Stauron,

The Harlot riding the Beast and Babylon, do not represent secular persecuting powers like China or Russia, because for example in Rev. 18:4 it says "Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins". In other words: "leave apostate churches and religions so you will not recieve the mark of the beast". You tell me what other religious organization started to arise out of the "many waters" soon after the the prophesies of Revealtion was written, and still exists to this day, and that has persecuted and martyred more followers of Christ, than the Roman Catholic Church? And has additionally, asimilated more pagan "Babylonian" practices, symbols, and doctrines than the RCC?

As a preterists, if you believe the prophesies of the book of Revelation were all fullfilled in the first century, how can you be aware of what is the mark of beast, and who is the beast power that implements it in our time? Jesus gave us Christians the book of Revelation so we would be wise and discern the signs of the times, because as Paul and Peter said that even with this knowledge, that Satan's final deceception would be so strong that "even the very elect would scarcely be saved" [paraphase].

Brooks
 
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BrightCandle said:
Suede & Stauron,

The Harlot riding the Beast and Babylon, do not represent secular persecuting powers like China or Russia, because for example in Rev. 18:4 it says "Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins". In other words: "leave apostate churches and religions so you will not recieve the mark of the beast". You tell me what other religious organization started to arise out of the "many waters" soon after the the prophesies of Revealtion was written, and still exists to this day, and that has persecuted and martyred more followers of Christ, than the Roman Catholic Church? And has additionally, asimilated more pagan "Babylonian" practices, symbols, and doctrines than the RCC?

As a preterists, if you believe the prophesies of the book of Revelation were all fullfilled in the first century, how can you be aware of what is the mark of beast, and who is the beast power that implements it in our time? Jesus gave us Christians the book of Revelation so we would be wise and discern the signs of the times, because as Paul and Peter said that even with this knowledge, that Satan's final deceception would be so strong that "even the very elect would scarcely be saved" [paraphase].

Brooks

You're right, none of that makes sense. The great "coming out" was going on in John's day: John wrote in 1 john 2
2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour. 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.

When those apostates that cried "His blood on us and on our children" brought the full measure of wrath by continuing to hold to the weak and beggerly elemental principals that were fading away and trampling under foot the Son of God the true Son's were commanded to come out before the judgment fell. As predicted in Luke
21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21:21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it, 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
The ones that had faith in the message and the messangers fled the rest perished.



Well I am sure that by understanding what John intended to the original audience, we will be much better prepared to discern the evil of our day.

For instance the mark of the beast was exactly the same nature as the mark of God described 4 verses later (Rev 14:1). Obviously symbolic of ownership. So we look at what made sense and what the readers would have understood and can see that it was describing the Synagogue of Satan/brood of vipers/ white washed sepulchres that said they have no king but caesar.

1st rule of hermeneutics: context context context
2nd rule if the original audience was not meant to understand the letter then why should we?
 
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BrightCandle

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Stauron:

The first century Christian audience understood Jesus' warning recorded in Luke 21:20-23, the historical record is when the Roman General Cestius had surrounded the city( about 40 years after Jesus spoke the words recorded in Luke 21), then unexpectedly abandonded the siege of Jerusalem when everything seemed favorable for attack. When the Jews who were assembled in Jerusalem, left the city and pursued Cestius and the Roman army, the Christians took this as a sign to flee Jerusalem based on Jesus' words, and went out en masse to the city of Pella, in the land of Perea, beyond Jordan. But, as record also records, the Romans reorganized their forces under the command of the Roman General Titus around 70 A.D., and besieged Jerusalem during the time of Passover, when millions of Jews were assemble there. Millions of Jews were killed in the final siege, but not one Christian. This was a remarkable fullfillment of Jesus' prophesy.

Brooks
 
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