Babylon the Great?

[LightBearer]

Hi lightbearer,

I was just noticing the diffeence in what you said compared to what Jesus said.

Jesus said,Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36

But you take it up to our time which is way passed there generation.

You said, Who therefore is the "Babylon The Great" responsible for all the righteous blood shed after apostate Israel’s destruction along with faithless Jews in 70 C.E. and on up to our time? This bloodshed too is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

Hi Hidden Manna

It says at Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. So John was about to see visions of future events that would reach down to our day among which was the one concerning "Babylon The Great".

At Rev 18 "Babylon The Great" is said to be responisble for all the righteous blood spilled throughout history.

Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." Revelation 18:24

In my post I stated that the fact that Jesus included religious leaders of Israel along with their forefathers as sharers in the blood guilt for the "Righteous Blood" spilled, they were only a part of and not "Babylon The Great" alone.

Babylon The Great was clearly in existence before Israel and continued in existence after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. according to Rev 1:1: 18:24. Therefore, the False religous leaders and apostate Israel were identified with BTG but were not BTG in its entirety.

 

[LightBearer]

I am not sure how that mitigates Jesus' words??

Babylon = rebelious Jews; it WAS the scribes and pharisees that were held accountable, not given a SHARE of the guilt.

Since Jesus was talking to them and said that it would be required at their hands, the normal, natural, plain reading is that they are the same group that is talked about in Revelation.

Please explain to me what Jesus means by "this generation will be held responsible for all these things!"

You appear to have overlooked my question.

You stated that "The Faithless in Israel" were BTG. That they alone were responsible for the endictment "all those who have been slaughtered on the earth" mentioned at Rev 18:24. You quoted Matthew 23: as evidence of this.

So I'll ask it again.

How could faithless Jews in Israel be responsible for the death of Able?

Regards,
LB

 

[Suede]

Hi LB

Let me field this one. You asked Stauron "How could faithless Jews in Israel be responsible for the death of Abel?" Matthew 23 and Luke 11 are the correct proofs of this.

Matthew 23:34-37 "Therefore,behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

So, even if we aren't sure 'how' the faithless Jews are responsible for Abel's death, we need to at the very least acknowledge that they are in accordance with Jesus. One interpretation is that Jesus is using a 'righteous vs. wicked' model with Abel and Cain. That is, Abel was righteous, he was a Child of God, but Cain was wicked and slew Abel. In like fashion the Jews do the same, being wicked to the Prophets, Wisemen and Scribes. Another chapter to look at is John 8 where Jesus states that the faithless Jews were Children of the Devil, as opposed to Children of God.

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Note how Jesus links up the Devil with being a murderer from the start, just like with Cain.

In the end we can gather up all the interpretations of the faithless Jews and how they are responsible for Abel and make a book out of all of them. But really the key here is to acknowledge Jesus' words to be true. Take care,

SUEDE

 

[LightBearer]

SUEDE: Thank you for your input.

I,m not disputing Jesus words, of course they are true. But rather, does his words proove that "The faithless Jews" alone are the "Babylon the Great" of Rev 18.

Regards,
LB

 

[Bulldog]

I was just wondering who Orthodox Christians interprete Babylon the Great to be?
In Revelations it speaks of Babylon the Great and that it will fall and God's Kingdom rule.
Most of you already know the JW perspective so I will not post it because I do not want to antagonize anyone but I would like to know the wy others interprete this entity from Revelations.
Agape',TB

I'm not sure I would qualify as orthodox (I assume you mean orthodox not Orthoox), but I believe the harlot of Babylon to be Jerusalem.

• Who is Babylon mentioned in Revelation?

Babylon, also described as a prostitute, is none other than the city of Jerusalem and a representation of the apostate Israel of the first century. It is being identified in Revelation 11:8 as "the city where our Lord was crucified", the great city which fills itself with the blood of the prophets and saints.

Further evidence for this position exists in the harlot's clothing, which is purple, scarlet, gold and has precious stones and pearls. This is almost an exact description of the High Priest's ephod from Exodus 28:5-6,36.

The gold cup Babylon the prostitute holds is similar to the gold cups used in the temple ministry.

http://planetpreterist.com/modules....yes&id_cat=1&categories=Planetpreterist.com#8

 

[LightBearer]

Another characteristic of this mystic harlot bearing the name “Babylon the Great” is that she is called “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” This kingdom enables her to sit on “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” Re 17:1, 15, 18

Now, a kingdom that is over other kingdoms and nations is defined as an Empire. Mystic “Babylon the Great” is therfore an Empire that places herself above the kings of the earth and exercises power and influence over them.

The question this raises therefore is: When was Israel ever an EMPIRE?

Keep in mind too that according to Revelation this vision of John was yet to occur, it was yet future “…things that must shortly take place…” Rev 1:1 This clearly indicates a FUTURE fulfillment of John’s prophecy concerning the destruction of BTG.

When John wrote Revelation in about 98 C.E. Apostate Israel’s destruction had already occurred almost 30 years previous.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Another characteristic of this mystic harlot bearing the name “Babylon the Great” is that she is called “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” This kingdom enables her to sit on “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” Re 17:1, 15, 18

Now, a kingdom that is over other kingdoms and nations is defined as an Empire. Mystic “Babylon the Great” is therfore an Empire that places herself above the kings of the earth and exercises power and influence over them.

The question this raises therefore is: When was Israel ever an EMPIRE?

Keep in mind too that according to Revelation this vision of John was yet to occur, it was yet future “…things that must shortly take place…” Rev 1:1 This clearly indicates a FUTURE fulfillment of John’s prophecy concerning the destruction of BTG.

When John wrote Revelation in about 98 C.E. Apostate Israel’s destruction had already occurred almost 30 years previous.

Babylon cannot be after Jerusalem was destroyed because Jesus placed the timing to the generation which was alive at the time. To make it another generation would mean the Jesus was a false prophet and not who He said He was a the Son of God.

Matt.23
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

If John wrote the book of Revelations after 70 AD as you say then why is it then that John never even mentioned Jerusalem was destroyed. Do you think now that there is a srtonger support ofr Revelations being writing before 70 AD for just that reason alone, simply because it would make perfect sense.
If not I can provide much more proof.

 

[LightBearer]

Babylon cannot be after Jerusalem was destroyed because Jesus placed the timing to the generation which was alive at the time. To make it another generation would mean the Jesus was a false prophet and not who He said He was a the Son of God.

Which is my point exactly.

Jerusalem therefore is not the Babylon the Great of Revelation Chpts 17 and 18.

Jesus never used the term "Babylon the Great" or "Babylon" when referring to Jerusalem.

Neither Jesus nor John is in error. It’s only when we try to fit BTG into our own interpretation and apply it solely to Jerusalem that we come up against apparent contradictions in scripture. Clearly, by accepting to testimony of both Jesus and John BTG has a much wider application. It was in existence before Jerusalem and is still in existence today.

Regards,
LB

 

[stauron]

Keep in mind too that according to Revelation this vision of John was yet to occur, it was yet future “…things that must shortly take place…” Rev 1:1 This clearly indicates a FUTURE fulfillment of John’s prophecy concerning the destruction of BTG.

When John wrote Revelation in about 98 C.E. Apostate Israel’s destruction had already occurred almost 30 years previous.

So what was destroyed soon after 98 that fits the bill?

What persecution was going on in 98, especially in Asia Minor?

Why is John told to measure the temple if it had been destroyed 30 years before? (a temple that has been given to the Gentiles, exactly like the one Jesus predicted would fall in 70... Luke 21:20-24)

 

[LightBearer]

So what was destroyed soon after 98 that fits the bill?

Nothing.

BTG has not yet been destroyed. It has fallen, in the sense that it no loger hold the power and influence that it once had. This is simi;ar to or paralelled by ancient Babylon, althought it fell to the Mede's and Persians it still existed for centuries afterwards. BTG also though having experienced a fall is still in existence awaiting it's final destruction.

Regards,
LB

 

[Suede]

Hello LB,

"I'm not disputing Jesus words, of course they are true. But rather, does his words prove that "The faithless Jews" alone are the "Babylon the Great" of Rev 18."

The only conclusion we can draw is that they alone are in fact Babylon the Great. We have already covered that Jesus reserved direct statements to the faithless Jews alone. We also know that God established his Covenant, the Old Covenant, with Israel alone. No other group of people/nation had a covenant with God like Israel did. Therefore, only they alone can be a harlot to God, no other nation. So with direct and more indirect proofs, I think we can and must concede that Israel was Babylon the Great. Take care,

SUEDE

 

[stauron]

Nothing.

BTG has not yet been destroyed. It has fallen, in the sense that it no loger hold the power and influence that it once had. This is simi;ar to or paralelled by ancient Babylon, althought it fell to the Mede's and Persians it still existed for centuries afterwards. BTG also though having experienced a fall is still in existence awaiting it's final destruction.

Regards,
LB

So John received a false vision. He was told it was to take place shortly and didn't.

OH, either that or you're wrong.

 

[LightBearer]

No other group of people/nation had a covenant with God like Israel did. Therefore, only they alone can be a harlot to God, no other nation.

SUEDE

Not so.

In what sense did Israel become a Harlot.

The term "harlot" is at times used in a figurative way to apply to a professed worshiper of Jehovah, or to an organization or a nation that claims to worship him but that actually gives affection and worship to other gods.

The christian congregation is in Covenant with God, The New Covenant.

The Christian congregation is also likened to a virgin espoused or promised in marriage to one husband the Christ as her Head and King. (2Co 11:2; Eph 5:22-27)

James warned Christians against committing spiritual adultery or fornication through friendship with the world of whome Satan is it's God. (Jas 4:4; compare Joh 15:19.) If doing so he could rightly wiew them as spiritual Harlots.

So BTG still has a wider application.

Regards,
LB

 

[LightBearer]

So John received a false vision. He was told it was to take place shortly and didn't.

OH, either that or you're wrong.

It was God through Jesus that gave the revelation to John. He for whom a thousand years are as one day. 2 Pet 3:8



Regards,

LB

 

[stauron]

Not so.

In what sense did Israel become a Harlot.

The term "harlot" is at times used in a figurative way to apply to a professed worshiper of Jehovah, or to an organization or a nation that claims to worship him but that actually gives affection and worship to other gods.

The christian congregation is in Covenant with God, The New Covenant.

The Christian congregation is also likened to a virgin espoused or promised in marriage to one husband the Christ as her Head and King. (2Co 11:2; Eph 5:22-27)

James warned Christians against committing spiritual adultery or fornication through friendship with the world of whome Satan is it's God. (Jas 4:4; compare Joh 15:19.) If doing so he could rightly wiew them as spiritual Harlots.

So BTG still has a wider application.

Regards,
LB

Only Israel is called a harlot. Repetedly. Those in the new covenant cannot commit adultery in that way. Hebrews 8 spells out the difference between the convenants.

 

[stauron]

It was God through Jesus that gave the revelation to John. He for whom a thousand years are as one day. 2 Pet 3:8



Regards,

LB

So the millenium lasts 1 day.

Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 thousand years.

Methusulah lived for less than 1 day.

Jesus is going to take 3 thousand years to rebuild the temple and come out of the tomb.

Oh, that's right, time is only elastic when it needs to fit your theology. Whatever happened to literalism anyway?

 

[LightBearer]

Only Israel is called a harlot. Repetedly. Those in the new covenant cannot commit adultery in that way. Hebrews 8 spells out the difference between the convenants.

Why not?

 

[LightBearer]

So the millenium lasts 1 day.

Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 thousand years.

Methusulah lived for less than 1 day.

Jesus is going to take 3 thousand years to rebuild the temple and come out of the tomb.

Oh, that's right, time is only elastic when it needs to fit your theology. Whatever happened to literalism anyway?

Couldn't two thousand years be considered "a short period" then from God's veiwpoint of time? The scriptures clearly indicate that to be so.

To Jehovah, a mans lifetime is like a mist that appears for a few hours in the morning then is quickly is gone

James 4:14 whereas YOU do not know what YOUR life will be tomorrow. For YOU are a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing.

Or like an exhalation. As brief as one outward breath, and then expired.

Psalm 39:5 Look! You have made my days just a few; And my life’s duration is as nothing in front of you. Surely every earthling man, though standing firm, is nothing but an exhalation. Se´lah.

Or like a fleeting shadow that momentarily catches the eye and before you have time to think about it is passed by.​

Psalm 144:4 Man himself bears resemblance to a mere exhalation; His days are like a passing shadow.​

Whatever, we can however scripturaly conclude that since John wrote of BTG's destruction as a future event (Things that must shortly take place) from 98 C.E. we can most definitely eliminate Jerusalem as BTG which was destroyed 30 years previous.

Regards,
LB

 

[Hidden Manna]

This reminds me of a good joke.

A man asked God, how long is a million years to you. God said one second. Then the man asked God how much is a million dollars to you. God said one penny. The man asked God for one penny and God said wait just one second.

 

[stauron]

Couldn't two thousand years be considered "a short period" then from God's veiwpoint of time? The scriptures clearly indicate that to be so.

To Jehovah, a mans lifetime is like a mist that appears for a few hours in the morning then is quickly is gone

James 4:14 whereas YOU do not know what YOUR life will be tomorrow. For YOU are a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing.

Or like an exhalation. As brief as one outward breath, and then expired.

Psalm 39:5 Look! You have made my days just a few; And my life’s duration is as nothing in front of you. Surely every earthling man, though standing firm, is nothing but an exhalation. Se´lah.

Or like a fleeting shadow that momentarily catches the eye and before you have time to think about it is passed by.​

Psalm 144:4 Man himself bears resemblance to a mere exhalation; His days are like a passing shadow.​

Whatever, we can however scripturaly conclude that since John wrote of BTG's destruction as a future event (Things that must shortly take place) from 98 C.E. we can most definitely eliminate Jerusalem as BTG which was destroyed 30 years previous.

Regards,
LB

Sorry, you have eliminated all meaning of time so a future tense definitely can refer to an event 30 years past.

You are saying God doesn't seem to be able to tell time, or if He can, He isn't able to communicate it to man in a meaningful way. So sure, shortly can mean what ever YOU want.

As I said in my earlier post, when it is convenient for your theology, time statements are flexible and non-literal, you have the classic case of theology driving hermeneutics. Start out with your presuppositions and then build a hermeneutic to match.