Babylon the Great?

[True Believer]

I was just wondering who Orthodox Christians interprete Babylon the Great to be?
In Revelations it speaks of Babylon the Great and that it will fall and God's Kingdom rule.
Most of you already know the JW perspective so I will not post it because I do not want to antagonize anyone but I would like to know the wy others interprete this entity from Revelations.
Agape',TB

 

[Oblio]

I was just wondering who Orthodox Christians interprete Babylon the Great to be?

By Orthodox Christians do you mean Eastern Orthodox, or do you mean orthodox Christians ?

 

[True Believer]

Hi

any one who has an opinion of thier meaning would be welcome. I am just wondering what other ideas about this there are.
Thanks',TB.

 

[Suede]

TB,

Well there are a lot of different interpretations of Mystery Babylon, so as far as a single consensus goes, you probably won't get one. A lot of people say it's the Catholic Church, Islam has become aligned to it due to recent events. However, I feel it's important let the Bible interpret itself. Before I give my view, it should be known that I am a Preterist and view things to have been fulfilled in the past, namely in 70 AD. Anyways though, I think Mystery Babylon is none other than Jerusalem and here's Biblical proofs as to why I feel this way courtesy of www.souldevice.org .
___________________________________________________________________

Was Jerusalem Mystery Babylon?
​

A Harlot

Rev 17:5
. . . and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city [Jerusalem] has become a harlot!

Jeremiah 3:6-10
"Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.

Whose "Lovers" Will Strip Her and Ruin Her
Rev 17:16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Ezekiel 16:37-39
therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare.

Dressed in Purple and Scarlet and Gold
Rev 17:4 & Rev 18:15
The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...
'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Exodus 28:1-43
They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen. "Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of a skilled craftsman.

Jeremiah 4:30-31
What are you doing, O devastated one? Why dress yourself in scarlet and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint? You adorn yourself in vain. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child - the cry of the Daughter of Zion...

A Great City Who Says She is No Widow
Rev 17:18 & Rev 18:7-8
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’ Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.

Drunk With the Blood of the Saints
Rev 17:6 & Rev 18:20&24
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.’"

Matthew 23:35
And so upon you [Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

1 Thes 2:14-15
". . . the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."

Desolations
Rev 18:23
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived".

Matt 23:38
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Matthew 21:19
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Jeremiah 22:8-9"And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city? Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them."

Isaiah 4:2-4 "In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning."

Conclusion

We must use the Bible to interpret the Bible biblically. . . not the political landscape of our world to try to expose Mystery Babylon. We are not to use the "signs of the times", the newspaper, or our favorite prophecy teachers to interpret Bible prophecy.

Jerusalem is only one according to Jesus that is responsible for all of the deaths of all the prophets and all of the apostles and all of the saints. Jesus said God's vengeance would come against that people, in that generation. They would be judged for spilling all the righteous blood shed on earth. In fact, if all the blood of all the prophets was against them (and the office of prophet no longer exists) then the Babylonian harlot of Revelation 18 no longer exists. Why did this have to happen???

"In that He says, A new [covenant], he has made the first [the Old Covenant] old. . . and is ready to vanish away"
Heb 8:13
​

The Old Covenant System began to vanish away with the sacrifice of Christ and was completely destroyed when Jesus came (in judgment) to destroy the temple as he promised. Because of this, we are now in the Kingdom of God's dear Son . . . never to be shaken or removed (Hebrews 12:28; Col 1:13)
____________________________________________________________________________


There are more similarities, David Chilton covers some more in his book Days of Vengeance, but that's the jist of them. Well, that's a general Preterist view (and Biblical view as well). Take care,

SUEDE

 

[True Believer]

Thank You Suede,
I have always wondered what others thought of this since we apply it to all religion that is not following Jehovah God,I knew others must have a different view of who the Harlot and Beast are.
My feeling is that it has to be a future prophecy like all of the rest of Revelation since it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. Like I said, I Thank You for letting me know how some others view this.
Agape',TB

 

[unbound]

My thoughts are that Babylon is the first beast, which was wounded, and did live. Its an insatiable appetite of worldly things, and it is of satanic origin, such as pride, lust, and greed.

 

[LightBearer]

I think one of the most telling indictments against Babylon The Great is this one found at Revelation 18:24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

That is quite a charge that God lays at here feet. And as TB pointed out, Revelation contained future prophecy’s that involve our day.

What bloodguilt!!! Who today shares responsibility and is held accountable by God for it all?

It is vitally importartant that we know accurately who "Babylon The Great" is considering the warning given at Revelation 18:4-5 “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

Could we inadvertently be a part of "Babylon The Great" if in doubts or not really sure as to who she really is. If so, this should be a matter of serious concern since clearly from the scripture above it involves our lives.

 

[stauron]

Great point LightBearer. Considering the warnings we should surely know who this "mother of all harlots" is.

Suede's post is excellent. Our opinion and thoughts about Babylon must be controlled by scripture.

Don Preston has written the best book on the topic that I have ever read. "Who is this Babylon" covers all the references from Suede's post and much, much more.

Regardless of when you think Revelation was written, the clear, consistent usage of the terms used to describe Babylon are only applied to the faithless from Israel.

Synagogue of Satan, Brood of Vipers, Children of the Devil, wicked and adulterous generation, white washed sepulchers, wretches brought to a wretched end, children of Hagar in bondage, etc, etc.

These terms all refer to the same set of people. Don't be content to only match 2 or 3 of the characteristics of Babylon. Contemporary (to John) Jerusalem that was described as:

4:25 Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

matches all of the requirements.

 

[LightBearer]

Regardless of when you think Revelation was written, the clear, consistent usage of the terms used to describe Babylon are only applied to the faithless from Israel.

Synagogue of Satan, Brood of Vipers, Children of the Devil, wicked and adulterous generation, white washed sepulchers, wretches brought to a wretched end, children of Hagar in bondage, etc, etc.

These terms all refer to the same set of people. Don't be content to only match 2 or 3 of the characteristics of Babylon. Contemporary (to John) Jerusalem that was described as: matches all of the requirements.

Thank you stauron for your intersting veiwpoint.

I cannot however limit the application of "Babylon The Great" to "the faithless from Israel". Those alone cannot be responsible for deaths "all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” up to and including our time. It therefore must have a wider application.

Regards,
LB

 

[lared]

Babylon the Great is the world empire of false religion.

Aptly portrayed as a harlot.

One who tries to look beautiful on the outside, yet on the inside is full of STD's.

A harlot will also do anything for money, something she always has her eyes on.

Also, she will commit adultery at anytime.

The world empire of false religion with christendom playing a major role fits the bill.

 

[blessedbe]

Great point LightBearer. Considering the warnings we should surely know who this "mother of all harlots" is.

Suede's post is excellent. Our opinion and thoughts about Babylon must be controlled by scripture.

Don Preston has written the best book on the topic that I have ever read. "Who is this Babylon" covers all the references from Suede's post and much, much more.

Regardless of when you think Revelation was written, the clear, consistent usage of the terms used to describe Babylon are only applied to the faithless from Israel.

Synagogue of Satan, Brood of Vipers, Children of the Devil, wicked and adulterous generation, white washed sepulchers, wretches brought to a wretched end, children of Hagar in bondage, etc, etc.

These terms all refer to the same set of people. Don't be content to only match 2 or 3 of the characteristics of Babylon. Contemporary (to John) Jerusalem that was described as: matches all of the requirements.

Stauron, that's a great post. This is something I hadn't thought about before, is this book available at the bookstore? I'd love to read it.

BTW, are you preterist also? Is this Don Preston preterist? I don't hold to the preterist view, so I guess I should know this before I go out and get the book.

Actually, the 7th day Adventists made one of the best cases I've heard for it being the Catholic Church, yet when it came to the part about Sunday Worship being the sign of the beast, I had to back off. Up until then, it made alot of sense, and then it just got crazy!! LOL I can't figure out at all how they get that (that sunday worship is taking the sign of the beast).

 

[stauron]

Thank you stauron for your intersting veiwpoint.

I cannot however limit the application of "Babylon The Great" to "the faithless from Israel". Those alone cannot be responsible for deaths "all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” up to and including our time. It therefore must have a wider application.

Regards,
LB

Well, Jesus limited the scope, not me:

23:34 “For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 23:35 so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 23:36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!

As I said, don't be content to settle for 2 or 3 of the criteria for Babylon. Revelation itself limits the time frame to soon and very soon, and the identity is very narrow. Who else could be the "Mother of ALL harlots" except the city that rejected and crucified their own Lord?

Who could be the adulteress generation except those in covnenant with God?

Biblically find one other reference to "harlots" or "faithless" outside of Israel.

If the shoe fits...

 

[stauron]

Stauron, that's a great post. This is something I hadn't thought about before, is this book available at the bookstore? I'd love to read it.

BTW, are you preterist also? Is this Don Preston preterist? I don't hold to the preterist view, so I guess I should know this before I go out and get the book.

Actually, the 7th day Adventists made one of the best cases I've heard for it being the Catholic Church, yet when it came to the part about Sunday Worship being the sign of the beast, I had to back off. Up until then, it made alot of sense, and then it just got crazy!! LOL I can't figure out at all how they get that (that sunday worship is taking the sign of the beast).

Yeah, there are several SDA books that I have enjoyed, but the sabbath bit always threw me to...

Yes, I am a preterist and Don Preston is a preterist.

That shouldn't deter you too much, but I examined the preterist arguments and took them because they have scriptural answers for the questions that make sense.

The book is a great read, and like I said if you take a Jesus that is mostly what the scriptures say, you miss the WHOLE PICTURE. I feel it is the same way with Babylon, the consequences may not be quite as great, but consistency and accuracy are important. Keep searching!

stauron

 

[blessedbe]

Yeah, there are several SDA books that I have enjoyed, but the sabbath bit always threw me to...

Yes, I am a preterist and Don Preston is a preterist.

That shouldn't deter you too much, but I examined the preterist arguments and took them because they have scriptural answers for the questions that make sense.

The book is a great read, and like I said if you take a Jesus that is mostly what the scriptures say, you miss the WHOLE PICTURE. I feel it is the same way with Babylon, the consequences may not be quite as great, but consistency and accuracy are important. Keep searching!

stauron

I have looked a little into the preterist view but there are a few things that have thrown me also--like the SDA!

I think I will check out that book though, I'm going to do some errands later on and will swing by our local christian bookstore. I've looked into JW's view and SDA and also the general view(which I think also says the Catholic Church). I haven't studied it too awful hard though. I had never heard the view that the preterists hold.

I will admit, the preterists have some good points they bring up, but I have trouble with the idea that we are now living in the Kingdom and it will only get better.. until everyone is "converted". That is one of the big stumbling blocks for me....anyway, I don't want to derail this thread....... so maybe I'll start another thread on that!!

 

[Hidden Manna]

Thank you stauron for your intersting veiwpoint.

I cannot however limit the application of "Babylon The Great" to "the faithless from Israel". Those alone cannot be responsible for deaths "all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” up to and including our time. It therefore must have a wider application.

Regards,
LB

Jesus seems to have meant Jerusalem or the scribes and Pharisees that were living in Jerusalem. I do not think Jesus held everyone responsible for the blood shed. People like James Peter and Paul etc. were not for sure because they ended up killed by these scribes and Pharisees.

We have today, like the scribes and Pharisees in the early Church, but I believe the scriptures were referring to the people back then and Babylon was destroyed in 70 AD. These scribes and Pharisees of today I believe are in outer dark-ness and have no part in the New Heavens that we now can enter into by faith in Christ.

Matt.23
29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'
31"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
(2) 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!"'[7]

 

[Suede]

TB,

Thanks for hearing me out, but here's something to consider. I quote, "My feeling is that it has to be a future prophecy like all of the rest of Revelation since it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem." This is based on presupposition, not fact. I would suggest you look into books about the dates of the writings of the Bible, perhaps "Redating the New Testament" or "Before Jerusalem Fell". Take care,

SUEDE

 

[LightBearer]

Thank you stauron for your intersting veiwpoint.

I cannot however limit the application of "Babylon The Great" to "the faithless from Israel". Those alone cannot be responsible for deaths "all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” up to and including our time. It therefore must have a wider application.

Regards,
LB

23:34 “For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 23:35 so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 23:36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!

Well, Jesus limited the scope, not me:

You have just proved my point above. That “Babylon The Great” has wider application than just the faithless from Israel and as Lared rightly says it includes all false religion past and present of whom faithless and apostate Israel was just a part

In your quote from Matt 23 of which you left out some important information in the previous verses, it says,

“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers.“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na? For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36

Jesus states here that the false religious leaders (Scribes and Pharisees) and their forefathers (who were not all Jews, faithless or otherwise) shared accountability for the bloodshed from Able to Zech·a·ri´ah. Yet this is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24
Point in fact: how were faithless Jews responsible for the death of righteous Able when it was Cain who killed him? Yet this is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

Secondly. Since the false religious leaders of Israel and their forefathers shared responsibility for the bloodshed up to Zech·a·ri´ah (and would of course shortly include Jesus himself and some of his fathfull followers). Who therefore is the "Babylon The Great" responsible for all the righteous blood shed after apostate Israel’s destruction along with faithless Jews in 70 C.E. and on up to our time? This bloodshed too is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

Regards,
LB

 

[Hidden Manna]

Hi lightbearer,

I was just noticing the diffeence in what you said compared to what Jesus said.

Jesus said,Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36

But you take it up to our time which is way passed there generation.

You said, Who therefore is the "Babylon The Great" responsible for all the righteous blood shed after apostate Israel’s destruction along with faithless Jews in 70 C.E. and on up to our time? This bloodshed too is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

 

[stauron]

You have just proved my point above. That “Babylon The Great” has wider application than just the faithless from Israel and as Lared rightly says it includes all false religion past and present of whom faithless and apostate Israel was just a part

In your quote from Matt 23 of which you left out some important information in the previous verses, it says,

“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers.“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na? For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:29-36

Jesus states here that the false religious leaders (Scribes and Pharisees) and their forefathers (who were not all Jews, faithless or otherwise) shared accountability for the bloodshed from Able to Zech·a·ri´ah. Yet this is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24
Point in fact: how were faithless Jews responsible for the death of righteous Able when it was Cain who killed him? Yet this is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

Secondly. Since the false religious leaders of Israel and their forefathers shared responsibility for the bloodshed up to Zech·a·ri´ah (and would of course shortly include Jesus himself and some of his fathfull followers). Who therefore is the "Babylon The Great" responsible for all the righteous blood shed after apostate Israel’s destruction along with faithless Jews in 70 C.E. and on up to our time? This bloodshed too is layed at the feet of "Babylon The Great" Rev 18:24

Regards,
LB

I am not sure how that mitigates Jesus' words??

Babylon = rebelious Jews; it WAS the scribes and pharisees that were held accountable, not given a SHARE of the guilt.

Since Jesus was talking to them and said that it would be required at their hands, the normal, natural, plain reading is that they are the same group that is talked about in Revelation.

Please explain to me what Jesus means by "this generation will be held responsible for all these things!"

 

[stauron]

I have looked a little into the preterist view but there are a few things that have thrown me also--like the SDA!

I think I will check out that book though, I'm going to do some errands later on and will swing by our local christian bookstore. I've looked into JW's view and SDA and also the general view(which I think also says the Catholic Church). I haven't studied it too awful hard though. I had never heard the view that the preterists hold.

I will admit, the preterists have some good points they bring up, but I have trouble with the idea that we are now living in the Kingdom and it will only get better.. until everyone is "converted". That is one of the big stumbling blocks for me....anyway, I don't want to derail this thread....... so maybe I'll start another thread on that!!

Do if you like! There is a lot to be considered, but not all preterists think that things are only getting better till everyone is converted. PM me or start a thread because this is certainly worth spending time on. Thanks for the kind words, most are repulsed by preterism too much to even consider it.