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Major1 said in post #334:

Kenneth Wuest, the well known Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure . . .

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the Church will depart from faith in Jesus Christ in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

*******

Major1 said in post #335:

Most commentators understand Luke 21:20 to be the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it makes sense to me as well.

When Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus' Second Coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the future Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 24:15, the Church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the Church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").
 
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VARZR said in post #338:

I personally feel that the antichrist will be the muslim mahdi . . .

Regarding the Muslim "Mahdi", during the Antichrist's rise to power, before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't Biblical, and so nothing requires they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in its total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria), and then he will mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:18-19). So the Muslims could then say they were mistaken in thinking he was the Mahdi.

Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if many Muslims had said he was the Mahdi, some of them could say they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa, a death sentence, being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against the Antichrist. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time the Antichrist declares himself God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it (at least one time) even within their own (future) temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) in Jerusalem, and he will defile that temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in every other religion's holiest shrine and declare himself God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist they will all attempt to assassinate him. But they will all fail to defeat him, for he won't be defeated until he's cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, Revelation 19:20).
 
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Your privilege.

However, Paul's prophecy is confirmed in history.

You have stated the history comment several times as if saying it makes it fact.

Where in actual historical events can you document your comment?
 
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Regarding Ezekiel 38, note the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the Millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the Millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the Millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least two major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the Millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the Millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). Also, whereas the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the Great White Throne Judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus Christ's worldwide Kingdom, still legally under His rule, just as they had been during the preceding Millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the Millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the Millennium, at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Also, the city of Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least three times before the Millennium: once near the start of the future Tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the Tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the start of the Millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

I can not agree with your comment of Ez. 38 and Rev. 20 being the same event.

Careful study show that they are TWO separate events separated by 1000 years.
The only thing that they have in common is the names Gog & Magog.

The Gog & Magog of Ez. 38 comes from a specific point of origin...the "North Parts".

The Rev. 20 Gog attack is just as specific as it states clearly it comes from the four corners of the earth.
 
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jgr

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You have stated the history comment several times as if saying it makes it fact.

Where in actual historical events can you document your comment?
Imperial Rome existed for some time after Paul, but eventually disappeared. Papal Rome emerged in its place. Over its more than 1000 years of apostate spiritual domination, the papacy usurped spiritual authority, declaring itself to be the only true church, and the only voice of God on the earth, i.e. "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God." Out of these spiritual dark ages God raised up the Reformers, who declared that (1) the just shall live by faith, and (2) the papacy is an antichrist. They frequently paid with their lives, but ultimately the Roman stranglehold was broken. We owe much of our spiritual existence and liberties today to their faith and sacrifice.

History is pure fact.
 
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Imperial Rome existed for some time after Paul, but eventually disappeared. Papal Rome emerged in its place. Over its more than 1000 years of apostate spiritual domination, the papacy usurped spiritual authority, declaring itself to be the only true church, and the only voice of God on the earth, i.e. "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God." Out of these spiritual dark ages God raised up the Reformers, who declared that (1) the just shall live by faith, and (2) the papacy is an antichrist. They frequently paid with their lives, but ultimately the Roman stranglehold was broken. We owe much of our spiritual existence and liberties today to their faith and sacrifice.

History is pure fact.

I still do not accept your thesis which you call "history".
 
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jgr

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I still do not accept your thesis which you call "history".
Your privilege.

It's not "my thesis." It's what Paul et al prophesied, and what the Reformers confirmed, proclaimed, lived through, and died for. I'm just a messenger.
 
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jgr said in post #345:

Over its more than 1000 years of apostate spiritual domination, the papacy usurped spiritual authority, declaring itself to be the only true church, and the only voice of God on the earth, i.e. "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God."

Note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where's YHWH? He's not here! He's a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while four strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could slowly zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(Compare Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)
 
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jgr

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Note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where's YHWH? He's not here! He's a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while four strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could slowly zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(Compare Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)
The temple to which Paul refers is a Greek "naos" temple, which is a spiritual temple in every instance where Paul uses the term in his epistles.

Daniel 7's little horn, 2 Thess. 2's man of sin, John's epistles where he describes antichrist, and the beast of Revelation 13 all find their fulfillment in the papacy.

The Reformers got it right. It cost thousands of them their lives.
 
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This me super paranoid. Is it physical? Is it not? If the devil tricks me, even if it's only for a second to think evilly, am I doomed? How can I be sure I don't have the mark?

Obey the scriptures

REV.14 [9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

above scripture sign – hand - forehead (between the eyes) - cup of indignation – the bad guys

below scriptures sign – hand - between thine eyes (forehead) - the LORDS LAW – the good guys

DEUT.6 [2] That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.[3] Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.[4]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: [5]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. [6]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: [7]And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. [8]And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be as FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES.

EXOD.13 [9] And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee UPON THINE HAND, and for A MEMORIAL BETWEEN THINE EYES, that the LORD's LAW may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Observe to keep Gods law. Observe to keep His 10 commandments. Fall short. Confess and repent. His grace will take care of any sin.
 
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jgr said in post #350:

The temple to which Paul refers is a Greek "naos" temple, which is a spiritual temple in every instance where Paul uses the term in his epistles.

Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2, the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, Luke 23:45, and John 2:20.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a third Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will coexist with the Church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the third temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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One reason the third Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the third-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a third Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe the third Jewish temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior Jewish temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a third Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason why the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a third Jewish temple: out of fear the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders. So the latter could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a third Jewish temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by three huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance, even though the U.S. sometimes complains about the settlements. But if down the road, the current, geriatric, lifeless leadership of Fatah is replaced by a younger, very-energetic leadership, which is able to whip up pressure from the Middle East's Arab masses and governments (not to mention from even non-Arab governments, such as the French or the EU) for a Palestinian state, and if this pressure becomes so extreme it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state. Also, there could be a gradual change within Israel itself, until a majority of Israelis, including civilians, army leaders, judges, etc., decide it's time to remove the current, hard-line Israeli government, and replace it, via elections, with a more liberal government which will be willing to implement a two-state solution with the Palestinians.)

Besides the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward them becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands to the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that He will no longer allow the Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert Jewish religious control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops and tanks long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it's out and the IDF troops actually see it, it's unlikely they're going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it's unlikely the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.
 
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The temple to which Paul refers is a Greek "naos" temple, which is a spiritual temple in every instance where Paul uses the term in his epistles.

Daniel 7's little horn, 2 Thess. 2's man of sin, John's epistles where he describes antichrist, and the beast of Revelation 13 all find their fulfillment in the papacy.

The Reformers got it right. It cost thousands of them their lives.

I can not agree with you and neither do the Scriptures. I am always amazed at those who can read the Scriptures then reject them because they do not fit their way of thinking. God bless you my friend.

I would however say to you that in all my years of study I have found the Scriptures to be telling us that a Third Jewish Temple will exist during the Great Tribulation. Daniel refers to this temple when he says that in Daniel 9:27.........
“the prince who is to come” (the Antichrist) will enter it and stop the sacrifices in the middle of the Tribulation.

The Apostle Paul mentions it when he declares that in 2 Thess. 2:3-4.......
the “man of lawlessness” will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be God.

The Third Temple is also mentioned in the book of Revelation when John is told in Rev. 11:1-2.......
"to measure it — a symbolic way of telling him to assess its spiritual condition ".

This raises the question as to precisely when the temple will be rebuilt. The Bible does not reveal the answer to this question. All it says for certain is that the temple will be in existence when the Antichrist reveals himself in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and that will be in the middle of the Tribulation according to Daniel 9:27.

Since this will be only three and a half years into the Tribulation, many have concluded that the temple will likely be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins, because how could such a magnificent building be constructed in such a short period of time?

But this conclusion overlooks the fact that the temple can be literally resurrected overnight! That’s because the Jews plan to erect a tent temple like the Tabernacle of Moses, and they are ready to do so at any moment.

Instead of arguing with the Scriptures and manipulating them to suit your thought, why not accept them as they are read and believe them. It makes life a lot more wonderful and a lot less stressful.
 
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jgr

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Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2, the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, Luke 23:45, and John 2:20.

I agree. But whenever Paul used the term in his epistles, including 2 Thess. 2:4, he was referring to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively, the Church.
 
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jgr

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I can not agree with you and neither do the Scriptures. I am always amazed at those who can read the Scriptures then reject them because they do not fit their way of thinking. God bless you my friend.

I would however say to you that in all my years of study I have found the Scriptures to be telling us that a Third Jewish Temple will exist during the Great Tribulation. Daniel refers to this temple when he says that in Daniel 9:27.........
“the prince who is to come” (the Antichrist) will enter it and stop the sacrifices in the middle of the Tribulation.

The Apostle Paul mentions it when he declares that in 2 Thess. 2:3-4.......
the “man of lawlessness” will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be God.

The Third Temple is also mentioned in the book of Revelation when John is told in Rev. 11:1-2.......
"to measure it — a symbolic way of telling him to assess its spiritual condition ".

This raises the question as to precisely when the temple will be rebuilt. The Bible does not reveal the answer to this question. All it says for certain is that the temple will be in existence when the Antichrist reveals himself in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and that will be in the middle of the Tribulation according to Daniel 9:27.

Since this will be only three and a half years into the Tribulation, many have concluded that the temple will likely be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins, because how could such a magnificent building be constructed in such a short period of time?

But this conclusion overlooks the fact that the temple can be literally resurrected overnight! That’s because the Jews plan to erect a tent temple like the Tabernacle of Moses, and they are ready to do so at any moment.

Instead of arguing with the Scriptures and manipulating them to suit your thought, why not accept them as they are read and believe them. It makes life a lot more wonderful and a lot less stressful.
There is no mention of a temple in Daniel 9:27, or anywhere else in Daniel 9. Nor is there any reference by Paul to Daniel. There is therefore no way scripturally to associate Daniel 9:27 with 2 Thess. 2:4 except by speculation.

Do you believe that the Reformers manipulated Scripture?

With regard to rebuilding a temple:

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII


Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.


A double portion of God's blessing to you as well, my friend.
 
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jgr said in post #354:

But whenever Paul used the term in his epistles, including 2 Thess. 2:4, he was referring to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively, the Church.

Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple. For your argument is like the argument of full preterism which claims the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" is used to refer to an actual, physical temple.

But why restrict Paul's use of "naos" to only his epistles? For he used "naos" in Acts 17:24 to refer to actual, physical temples.

jgr said in post #354:

But whenever Paul used the term in his epistles, including 2 Thess. 2:4, he was referring to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively, the Church.

Note that while the Church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it's not the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, second temple building which was in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the Church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the Church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, third, earthly, literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). This is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in His temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old Covenant Mosaic law third temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).
 
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jgr said in post #355:

There is no mention of a temple in Daniel 9:27 . . .

Note that when Daniel 9:27 says: "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", this is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 11:31, when the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will make a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem spiritually desolate by placing a (possibly android) image of himself (Revelation 13:15) in the holy place of the temple (Matthew 24:15) to be worshipped, and by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

In Daniel 9:27, the original Hebrew word (kanaph: H3671) translated as "overspreading" can mean a wing (1 Kings 6:24), but it doesn't have to mean that every time it's used. For it can also mean "the uttermost part" (Isaiah 24:16). The "overspreading" or "uttermost part" nature of the abomination of desolation could mean it will involve not just the holy place of the temple, but the entire temple. For example, what the future Antichrist could do is engrave the gematrial number of his name, "666" (Revelation 13:17b-18), all over the temple, within and without, top to bottom, thereby completely and utterly defiling it, rendering it spiritually desolate.

The Antichrist will be Luciferian, bringing the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and railing against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). He will want to utterly defile the future, 3rd Jewish temple to YHWH in Jerusalem (built by the ultra-Orthodox Jews) so he can poke his finger in YHWH's eye, so to speak, and purportedly show to the world (what he could call) "YHWH's powerlessness to defend the place that he himself has chosen" (cf. Zechariah 3:2). The Antichrist could claim that his ability to commit the abomination of desolation with impunity proves (in his words) "that YHWH cannot thwart the will of our Lord Lucifer, who empowers me" (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9).

But YHWH will permit the Antichrist and Lucifer to rule the world for less than four years (Daniel 12:11-12), before they're utterly defeated at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
 
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There is no mention of a temple in Daniel 9:27, or anywhere else in Daniel 9. Nor is there any reference by Paul to Daniel. There is therefore no way scripturally to associate Daniel 9:27 with 2 Thess. 2:4 except by speculation.

Do you believe that the Reformers manipulated Scripture?

With regard to rebuilding a temple:

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII

Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.


A double portion of God's blessing to you as well, my friend.

You are correct in that there is no specific mention of a temple in Daniel 9:27.

I believe that it is one of the pieces that allow for the puzzle to fit together perfectly.

The commencement of the coming 70th week occurs when the A/C makes a covenant with the Jews for a 7 year period. It appears to be an agreement intended to provide peace and safety for Israel. How ever in the middle of that 7 year period the A/C will break that agreement and CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE.

That means he will put and end to Jewish worship and set himself up as an object of worship and the ONLY place that Jewish sacrificial worship will ever take place is where it always took place and that is in the TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

Then the comment that FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE. refers to what Jesus called the "The Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24:15.......
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)".

Now lets do some "history". the word "YOU" is taken generically since the disciples would not live to see this take place. The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION then must refer to Daniel 9:27.....11:31 ....and 12:11 where HISTORY tells us that Antiochus Epiphanes profanation of the Jewish TEMPLE worship would foreshadow a similar and more sever act by the coming future A/C.

Whereas Antiochus offered a pig on the sacred alter of the TEMPLE, the A/C will offer himself as God and worthy to be worshipped. what is common to all of these actions????? THE TEMPLE!

Look again at Matthew 24:15..........."Whoever reads, let him understand".

 
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Major1

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Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple. For your argument is like the argument of full preterism which claims the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" is used to refer to an actual, physical temple.

But why restrict Paul's use of "naos" to only his epistles? For he used "naos" in Acts 17:24 to refer to actual, physical temples.



Note that while the Church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it's not the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, second temple building which was in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the Church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the Church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, third, earthly, literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). This is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in His temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old Covenant Mosaic law third temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

Agreed my friend. The only place animal sacrifices were done was the Temple which is the only place that they will be done in the future Tribulation period.
 
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Major1

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I agree. But whenever Paul used the term in his epistles, including 2 Thess. 2:4, he was referring to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively, the Church.

I am not able to accept that idea.

2 Thess. 2:4.....
"who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The Greek word you refer to....naos does not require some large Solomaic-like structure. Instead, it can refer to a small tent-like structure or inner sanctuary.

The Tabernacle was in fact a tent that was put up and taken down as the Jews moved.

As a Historicists, and it seems to me probably a Preterist, you must understand that at the end of the day you are required import a foreign meaning into 2 Thess 2:4 to maintain the figurative-church interpretation of naos.

Just so that you will understand my position and why I say the things I say, allow me to tell you that I believe when all the Biblical prophecies are taken as a whole, they cannot be spiritualized away. I am just not smart enough to explain away the literal written words of the Scriptures. To me, they are what they are and do not require my explanation of them or in any way to make them fit what I think.

To me, when the Bible speaks of a wicked man entering into the Temple, I take that to mean that a third Temple will be rebuilt and the Antichrist will enter into it.

When Paul writes about the followers of Jesus Christ being snatched off the earth I take it literally.

When the Bible says that there is a place were the lost of all ages will be tormented forever, I take that literally and I believe that there is just such a place just as well as there is a Heaven where the saved of all the ages will be blessed and stay eternally.

When the Bible says that Jesus walked on water, I take that to mean that He put His feet on WET liquid, water and He did not sink.

When Jesus and the prophet Daniel say that one day the world is going to experience a time of trouble unlike any other time in history, I believe it is going to happen (Matthew 24:15-21; Daniel 12:1-3).

Was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. unlike any other time in history? No, the Jews had a similar experience almost seven hundred years earlier when the Babylonians besieged Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. I believe that just as Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies concerning a suffering Messiah, so too will He fulfill the Old and New Testament prophecies concerning a conquering and victorious Messiah.

May the Lord bless you and help your understanding my friend and if you do not think like I do, that is OK as well.
 
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