Attending but not believing

[JohnCR]

Do you consider attending a church group like a youth group unacceptable if you don't actually believe? Despite my disbelief, I will openly admit that church provides a wonderful place to meet people and make new friends. I would love to attend a youth group with my friends, but most of them don't want me there because I am atheist. However, it seems counterproductive to tell me not to come to a youth group if they want me to turn to Christ. It's not that I want to believe or anything. I don't want to believe or disbelieve. I don't really have a desire to be of any particular belief. I just have a belief (actually, I lack one). I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off, so I can't just accept Christianity to go to a church group. If I suddenly said I believe in God right now, I would only be lying. I don't want to do that. What are your opinions on this?

Follow up question:

Part of the reason they don't want me to go is because I would express my opinion. If I went to a church group, is it better that I keep my atheist perspective to myself? It sounds a bit narrow minded, but I understand the concept of keeping a lid on debates, especially when they can get heated and even angry.

 

[Mela Monkey]

Na, I wouldn't say it's unacceptable. In my old youth group, there was probably 4-5 athiests (out of about 20 total).

I don't see why they would have a problem with you going.. As long as you wern't trying to constantly argue against christianity, like you said. They're probably afraid that you'll be a "bad" influence on the other young adults there. :/

Have you talked to the leader(s) at all? Maybe you could bring the issue up with the leader(s), and have them talk to your friends about it.

And to the second part.. I don't think you have to be afraid to keep your athiest beliefs to yourself, but like you said before.. it would be best to not be constantly arguing against christainity. Don't be afraid to question why they believe certain things though.

 

[JasperJackson]

John,
You would be more than welcome at my youth group (if I was in one - I'm a bit old now )

You seem to be open about your intentions, which is good. You're open about being an atheist, rather than trying to be "a wolf in sheep's clothing". But youth group (should) be more than just a social club. Its main purpose should always be for it's members to grow closer to God. So how would you feel about sitting through a sermon about some aspect of Jesus? Would it be something you "put up with" or would you try and learn something and truly listen. Some atheists love to talk about Christianity - if the topic is something such as creation or the virgin birth. But that covers less than 0.1% of what's in the Bible and we Christians talk more about the other 99.9%. So that's why you might not be interested. It's up to you.

But I agree with Mela. Talk to the leaders. Talk to your friends. Be open.

Oh and I definitely agree with this:

I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off

That's right, but God can turn that switch!. He did in me just over 2 years ago, after being an atheist for my whole life before that.

 

[silence_dogood]

Do you consider attending a church group like a youth group unacceptable if you don't actually believe? Despite my disbelief, I will openly admit that church provides a wonderful place to meet people and make new friends. I would love to attend a youth group with my friends, but most of them don't want me there because I am atheist. However, it seems counterproductive to tell me not to come to a youth group if they want me to turn to Christ. It's not that I want to believe or anything. I don't want to believe or disbelieve. I don't really have a desire to be of any particular belief. I just have a belief (actually, I lack one). I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off, so I can't just accept Christianity to go to a church group. If I suddenly said I believe in God right now, I would only be lying. I don't want to do that. What are your opinions on this?

In other words, you're using your friends and their church so that you can have a social outlet.

Part of the reason they don't want me to go is because I would express my opinion. If I went to a church group, is it better that I keep my atheist perspective to myself? It sounds a bit narrow minded, but I understand the concept of keeping a lid on debates, especially when they can get heated and even angry.

Church isn't a place for atheists to air their grievances against God and it isn't an open forum for non-Christians to try to convince us of the errors of our ways. It's a place for the Body of Christ to gather to worship our God and I would hope you'd be grown up enough to respect that.

You say it's narrow minded, but I say that there's something really dispicable about a person who can't even respect people's right to worship in peace, without having to defend their religion in their own house of worship.

 

[drich0150]

Do you consider attending a church group like a youth group unacceptable if you don't actually believe? Despite my disbelief, I will openly admit that church provides a wonderful place to meet people and make new friends. I would love to attend a youth group with my friends, but most of them don't want me there because I am atheist. However, it seems counterproductive to tell me not to come to a youth group if they want me to turn to Christ. It's not that I want to believe or anything. I don't want to believe or disbelieve. I don't really have a desire to be of any particular belief. I just have a belief (actually, I lack one). I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off, so I can't just accept Christianity to go to a church group. If I suddenly said I believe in God right now, I would only be lying. I don't want to do that. What are your opinions on this?

Follow up question:

Part of the reason they don't want me to go is because I would express my opinion. If I went to a church group, is it better that I keep my atheist perspective to myself? It sounds a bit narrow minded, but I understand the concept of keeping a lid on debates, especially when they can get heated and even angry.

If you were a White supremacist would you insist on being apart of a NAACP rally? Even if you did, Would you also insist on being able to speak to your world views at that rally??

Inherently there is nothing wrong with someone (on the outside) joining or wanting to be apart of a specific social group, but to insist on being able to introduce a message counter to the ideals of said group is (even in your world) Not a kosher thing to do.

I believe, that you believe that you have place this youth group in a situation that shows the hypocrisy of the group. However in reality we are commanded to "expel the immoral brother." From our numbers, because a little yeast will Levin an entire loaf. (One bad apple will spoil the bunch.)

A youth Group is not an outreach program. It is a harbor or a safe place that we (as believers) may take our children so that they can develop stronger relationships with each other and the Lord. Outreach to "friends" who seek a relationship with God or that maybe curious about God can be an acceptable exception to that rule, but to have one such as yourself who has no desire to know God, is not.

 

[silence_dogood]

If you were a White supremacist would you insist on being apart of a NAACP rally? Even if you did, Would you also insist on being able to speak to your world views at that rally??

I liken it to going to somebody else's family reunion and then sitting around telling everybody what a jerk their grandpa is.

 

[JohnCR]

Gee, if you all feel so strongly about it, I guess I won't go. I wouldn't exactly compare atheists to white supremacists though. That's just low. I am not disrespectful of people's beliefs, and I said that I understand the need to keep a lid on debating. I said it "sounds" narrow minded, not that it is narrow minded. Perhaps I wasn't clear on that.

Of course, I guess I should have expected this kind of response on a forum where they quarantine non-Christians to one small segment of the site like lepers.

If I was at a church group, it's not like I would go in and start refuting every part of their belief system. I would wait and if I was asked my opinion, I would be polite and keep my answers short so as not to offend anyone. I would stay on the defensive, not no the offensive.

 

[silence_dogood]

Of course, I guess I should have expected this kind of response on a forum where they quarantine non-Christians to one small segment of the site like lepers.

I take it you weren't around when the Genral Apologetics forum was open.

Stop your whining. The only place you're restricted from posting is in the Congregation, theology, and edification boards. You're more than welcome to post anywhere else.

And if the congrgation, theology, and edification boards are that important to you, then just do what all the other non-Christians do and change your icon to Christian and go post there.

 

[JohnCR]

I take it you weren't around when the Genral Apologetics forum was open.

Stop you're whining. The only place you're restricted from posting is in the Congregation, theology, and edification boards. You're more than welcome to post anywhere else.

And if the congrgation, theology, and edification boards are that important to you, then just do what all the other non-Christians do and change your icon to Christian and go post there.

Perhaps you should respond to everything I said and not just pick out one part. And I am also barred from posting here if I did not start the topic. Am I whining? No, I am stating a fact. I don't care if I can or cannot post in your other boards. It's just a reflection of the attitudes of this community.

 

[BobW188]

I think the best advice you've been given here is to talk to the group leaders and see what they think. Some groups might be quite open to you if you respect that they are based on sincerely held beliefs and if, in addition to the social advantages, you're prepared to accept that they just might be right!

I was once in a Bible study course where skeptics were welcome, and the two who accepted the invitation proved to be real assets to our discussions, forcing us to examine why we believed what we believed. Whether we brought either to the Cross I don't know; but we were brought closer ourselves and I think that, in that process, they learned that most Christians did not fit the stereotypes they thought.

Again, different groups have different focuses. Some focus on believers discussing their beliefs, others are more open. If this is one of the latter, just remember to at all times respect - even if you don't share - the beliefs and, for that matter, the believers. Like I say, keep in mind: We just might be right!

 

[JohnCR]

I think the best advice you've been given here is to talk to the group leaders and see what they think. Some groups might be quite open to you if you respect that they are based on sincerely held beliefs and if, in addition to the social advantages, you're prepared to accept that they just might be right!

I was once in a Bible study course where skeptics were welcome, and the two who accepted the invitation proved to be real assets to our discussions, forcing us to examine why we believed what we believed. Whether we brought either to the Cross I don't know; but we were brought closer ourselves and I think that, in that process, they learned that most Christians did not fit the stereotypes they thought.

Again, different groups have different focuses. Some focus on believers discussing their beliefs, others are more open. If this is one of the latter, just remember to at all times respect - even if you don't share - the beliefs and, for that matter, the believers. Like I say, keep in mind: We just might be right!

I completely agree with you Bob. Like I said before, I don't want to just go and bash Christian beliefs. I mainly would like to go to make new friends and have some fun. I wouldn't be disrespectful or even go on the offensive. I would understand that I am a guest in a Christian house and that I should not be too outspoken or aggressive against their beliefs. The few times I have been to church, I have elected a more passive approach; I answer questions if asked and I do not lie about my opinion. However, I keep my answers brief and try to respect the fact that many are there to worship.

 

[98cwitr]

I started going to church as an atheist...it helped bring me to God by seeing the Spirit on others...just keep your mouth shut and go in the an attitude of attentiveness and a willingness to learn about Christ. I was very curious about why so many people believed...then found out why.

 

[JohnCR]

I started going to church as an atheist...it helped bring me to God by seeing the Spirit on others...just keep your mouth shut and go in the an attitude of attentiveness and a willingness to learn about Christ. I was very curious about why so many people believed...then found out why.

Keep my mouth shut?

I mean, if someone asks me about what I think, I'm not going to lie or keep completely silent. However, I'm not really going to start a huge debate either.

In all honesty, I doubt that a church could convince me that they are right. However, I don't rule out the possibility. I mean, I will have an open mind, but I won't just accept things they tell me about God either.

 

[ebia]

Do you consider attending a church group like a youth group unacceptable if you don't actually believe? Despite my disbelief, I will openly admit that church provides a wonderful place to meet people and make new friends. I would love to attend a youth group with my friends, but most of them don't want me there because I am atheist. However, it seems counterproductive to tell me not to come to a youth group if they want me to turn to Christ. It's not that I want to believe or anything. I don't want to believe or disbelieve. I don't really have a desire to be of any particular belief. I just have a belief (actually, I lack one). I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off, so I can't just accept Christianity to go to a church group. If I suddenly said I believe in God right now, I would only be lying. I don't want to do that. What are your opinions on this?

I would hope the community would make you welcome anyway.

Follow up question:

Part of the reason they don't want me to go is because I would express my opinion. If I went to a church group, is it better that I keep my atheist perspective to myself? It sounds a bit narrow minded, but I understand the concept of keeping a lid on debates, especially when they can get heated and even angry.

If the perception was that you were trying to undermine other people's faiths, be disruptive, or whatever then that would present a problem. The good functioning of the group needs to be balanced with an open welcome.

 

[Yab Yum]

Do you consider attending a church group like a youth group unacceptable if you don't actually believe? Despite my disbelief, I will openly admit that church provides a wonderful place to meet people and make new friends. I would love to attend a youth group with my friends, but most of them don't want me there because I am atheist. However, it seems counterproductive to tell me not to come to a youth group if they want me to turn to Christ. It's not that I want to believe or anything. I don't want to believe or disbelieve. I don't really have a desire to be of any particular belief. I just have a belief (actually, I lack one). I don't consider belief/disbelief to be a light switch that you can turn on and off, so I can't just accept Christianity to go to a church group. If I suddenly said I believe in God right now, I would only be lying. I don't want to do that. What are your opinions on this?

Follow up question:

Part of the reason they don't want me to go is because I would express my opinion. If I went to a church group, is it better that I keep my atheist perspective to myself? It sounds a bit narrow minded, but I understand the concept of keeping a lid on debates, especially when they can get heated and even angry.

Wanting to avoid a debate is no reason for either side to avoid each other. I think a lot of the heated debates exist because they're just projections of the inner struggle. Faith is wonderful but it indeed isn't a light switch. It can be a real battle too. For me, it is more of a difficult climb up a mountain but each time I pause for breathe the view gets more impressive.

This is partly why I'm kind of not into the sing-a-happy-song approach and like something more formal, but that's just me.

 

[Criada]

I would hope that you would be welcome in any church youth group; certainly in ours the young people are encouraged to bring friends. Jesus never isolated Himself from anyone, He welcomed all and ministered to them... as a church we should be doing the same. If your current 'need' is for friendship and a place to socialise, that is fine

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[JohnCR]

Jack Hayford invites unbelievers to worship. I see nothing wrong with it.

It is biblical and it is acceptable since the unbeliever could inevitably confess God is there.


1 Corinthians 14:23-25 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;

the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Let me tell you this. There is no such thing as privacy. God knows all your thoughts. If He wants to, He can make your thoughts known to other people. What you see in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25 is the operation of the Holy Spirit's convicting power.

This kind of thing is a little awkward because frankly I am not avidly trying to convert to Christianity. I will stay open minded, but I have no desire to believe either way. So, I am extremely grateful for people who welcome me into church as a friend and guest, but I really don't expect to find myself converting. I mean, if I expected to find God there, I wouldn't still be an atheist, would I? I'm not really sure how to explain

I guess I am a little jealous of Christians though who get to live on the socially acceptable side of society. Anywhere they go in the U.S., they most likely have a church community that will welcome them with open arms. We don't exactly have atheist societies that are equally warm or populous.

 

[silence_dogood]

Jack Hayford invites unbelievers to worship. I see nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, Hayford is a little wacky in some of his doctrines. I wonder if he knows that the Bible says that when pagans try to worship God, that God actually considers it an offense to Himself.

It is biblical and it is acceptable since the unbeliever could inevitably confess God is there.

Really? Where does the Bible say that unbelievers should worship God?

1 Corinthians 14:23-25 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;

the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Out of curiousity, did you notice that the first verse you quoted starts with the word "therefore"? Do you know what that means?

 

[98cwitr]

Keep my mouth shut?

I mean, if someone asks me about what I think, I'm not going to lie or keep completely silent. However, I'm not really going to start a huge debate either.

In all honesty, I doubt that a church could convince me that they are right. However, I don't rule out the possibility. I mean, I will have an open mind, but I won't just accept things they tell me about God either.

What I meant by that is dont go in and start ranting about how the topic (whatever it may be) doesn't makes sense, is contradictory to x, or actively engage in a theology debate. If someone asks you what you believe I would suggestion you be tactful and respectful. That's all I'm saying. I on the other hand, kept my mouth shut and listened to what they had to say, because I was there to observe and learn, and I cant do that if Im talking. I would ask questions from time to time, but at was about it until I came to Christ.