Athena returned the Spear

[random325nicaea]

There's no reason to believe this happened. The Bible, however, has achaeologic and historical evidence to back up some of the events in the Bible.

"SOME " being the key word here....

 

[Cabal]

How do you "pwn" a historical novel like the Iliad? it has nothing to do with the bible

Shows what some people subconsciously accept as competition, doesn't it....

 

[Cabal]

Athena returned the spear:

Was this done in spite of any physical sciences, or with respect to the physical sciences?

In spite of, and it was left to agent B.J. Blaskowicz* to restore the natural order:

*And before any other video game nerds set themselves on me, yes, I am aware that that's actually a different legendary spear....

 

[random325nicaea]

So they were entitled to it, not by divine fiat, but by virtue of the fact that they invaded it, right?

If that's so, then was Adolf Hitler entitled to it?

What I'm trying to do here, is show how thinking the Bible is a book of myths, and that the Hebrews were nothing more than nomads to start off with, can lead to anti-Zionism.

But I have a feeling no one is going to give me a straight answer.

you do understand that the major root of Zionism IS their "divine" right to claim that land as home....

so what you said makes perfect sense...and it's not even bad at all.

unless you're referring to antisemitism, which is a whole other ball game.
interstign to note btw, that jews have been persecuted for centuries by christians because a same type of "divine" word.

"All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!""

sound familiar?

"Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."

sound even more familiar?

maybe if i put it in the original text.

"Seien Sie folglich auf Ihrem Schutz gegen die Juden und wissen, dass, wohin sie ihre Synagogen haben, nichts aber eine Höhle der Teufel gefunden wird, in denen bloße Selbst-ruhm, Einbildung, Lügen, Blasphemie und das Verleumden des Gottes und der Männer am böswilligsten geübt werden und seine Augen auf ihnen veheming"

(i had to babel this, i couldn't find the actual quote in german in 5 mins.)

but i can throw you some more...

"Die Juden sind rechte Bluthunde, kein blutdürstigeres und rachgierigeres Volk hat die Sonne je beschienen. Wenn du mit einem Juden vom Evangelium reden wolltest, so wäre es eben als wenn du vor einer Sau das Evangelium predigst. Der Odem stinkt ihnen nach der Heiden Gold und Silber.
Pfui euch hier, pfui euch dort, und wor ihr seid, ihr verdammten Juden! Wenn du einen Juden siehst, magst du mit gutem Gewissen ein Kreuz vor dich schlagen und frei sicher sprechen: Da geht ein leibhaftiger Teufel! Darum wisse, daß du nächst dem Teufel keinen bitteren, giftigeren Feind hast als einen rechten Juden.
Sie glauben närrische Lügen und statt in das schöne Angesicht des göttlichen Wortes, kucken sie dem Teufel ins schwarze, finstere Hinterlügenloch und müssen seinen Stank anbeten. Sie sind giftige, hämische Schlangen, Meuchelmörder und Teufelskinder. Mein treuer Rat ist, wie droben gesagt, ernstlich: daß man ihre Synagogen mit Feuer verbrenne und, wer kann, Schwefel und Pech hinzufüge; wer auch höllisch Feuer zuwerfen könnte, wäre auch gut. Darum soll der Juden Maul nicht wert gehalten werden, sondern mit Säudreck soll man auf sie werfen.
Verbrenne ihre Synagogen und gehe mit ihnen nach aller Unbarmherzigkeit um... Will das nichts helfen, so müssen wir sie wie die tollen Hunde hinausjagen. Wenn mir Gott keinen anderen Messias geben wollte, als wie die Juden begehren, so wollte ich lieber eine Sau als ein Mensch sein""

-Wider das Papsttum vom Teufel gestiftet

guess by who?

 

[random325nicaea]

Be that as it may, some evidence exists for the Bible, while none exist for the example in the OP.

this might surprise you

Heinrich Schliemann, has discovered quite some ruins there....

wiki/Troy

the story goes that he went to Turkey with the Illias in his hand and he started looking in the region, he found a hill that fit the description in the epic, and he started digging.
lowe and behold.

there was troy.

several versions of different ages to be exact.

 

[random325nicaea]

Ya --- and Humpty-Dumpty validates the Great Wall of China --- right?

utter failure to get the point.

the point was that while there might be some kernel of truth to these stories, like the ancient city, or a person that existed.

that doesn't mean that all the "gods" claptrap really happened.

just that there WAS a city, and there probably WAS a war, and the story got kinda...."thickened" by storytellers...don't we all love a good story?

 

[random325nicaea]

Not at all. In addition to historical and archaeological evidence, there's also prophetic evidence. The Bible mentions many times that Israel will always be a nation that people want to attack and destroy, but that Israel will always prevail. History has shown this to be true. This pwns the Illiad big time.

EVERY nation is always subjected to a potential invation.

have you any idea how many wars the dutch fought? and how many tiems we've been and have conquered?

"but that Israel will always prevail."

with the biggest military in the world watching your ass....that shouldn't be that big of a problem...right America?

if it wasn't for you, the arabs would have driven out the colonists a LOOOONG time ago. instead you drove them out.

 

[AV1611VET]

you do understand that the major root of Zionism IS their "divine" right to claim that land as home....

I was referencing anti-Zionism --- not antisemitism.

I you want to look at antisemitism from a scientific perspective (i.e. the Bible is a myth), then I'll ask this:

Where did the first Hebrew come from?

Can you answer that from a scientific perspective and remain loyal to the teaching that the Bible is a myth?

(A one-word answer please --- the question is not that hard.)

 

[random325nicaea]

I was referencing anti-Zionism --- not antisemitism.

I you want to look at antisemitism from a scientific perspective (i.e. the Bible is a myth), then I'll ask this:

Where did the first Hebrew come from?

Can you answer that from a scientific perspective and remain loyal to the teaching that the Bible is a myth?

(A one-word answer please --- the question is not that hard.)

"I you want to look at antisemitism from a scientific perspective (i.e. the Bible is a myth), then I'll ask this:"

that doesn't even make SENSE!

no mater if or if the bible is not true, there will still be an ethnic group we call "hebrew" regardless of their religion, they will still be a different culture (even if so much of it is their religion), they will still have certain genetic traits and they will still have their own language.

and what does this have to do with antisemitism!?

antisemitism is a cultural aspect (a certain type of xenophobia if you ask me) brought on by, (at least in the west) primarily religious teachings.

to be honest, if they hadn't gone trough so much trouble to completely segregate themselves from the rest of us, antisemitism wouldn't exist as a word, it'll just be plain racism.
essentially the word comes from special pleading regarding their ethinal status.

it's like naming "antiafricanism."

"Where did the first Hebrew come from?"

ultimately form africa, but probably more recently an offshoot from a polytheistic culture in mesopotamia. although...this is an educated guess, i'll have to do some more research on this.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Be that as it may, some evidence exists for the Bible, while none exist for the example in the OP.

Au contraire, there indeed exists a country called Greece where these events took place. There exists a mountain called Olympus. Spears have been found. There are women named Athena who live in Greece. There must have been a Trojan war, because there is a university in So. Cal whose mascot is a Trojan.

This is evidence that cannot be ignored.

 

[Gracchus]

I(f) you want to look at antisemitism from a scientific perspective (i.e. the Bible is a myth), then I'll ask this:

Where did the first Hebrew come from?

Well, according to your holy book, that would be Abraham, and he came from Ur, a city in Mesopotamia.

Can you answer that from a scientific perspective and remain loyal to the teaching that the Bible is a myth?

(A one-word answer please --- the question is not that hard.)

Yes. If, of course, Abraham was a myth, then he came from the imagination of the mythmaker.

Or perhaps could give us criteria to distinguish a "Hebrew" from a "non-Hebrew"?

Come on, "A one-word answer please"? "Have you stopped masturbating fourteen times a day?" A first grader might be fooled by such specious nonsense, especially if he's been home-schooled by someone who is intellectually challenged.

 

[random325nicaea]

Au contraire, there indeed exists a country called Greece where these events took place. There exists a mountain called Olympus. Spears have been found. There are women named Athena who live in Greece. There must have been a Trojan war, because there is a university in So. Cal whose mascot is a Trojan.

This is evidence that cannot be ignored.

lawl

 

[shinbits]

How do you "pwn" a historical novel like the Iliad? it has nothing to do with the bible, other than that they are both historical novels full of magic reality. Mighty warriors, divine intervention etc.

It pwns the Illiad as far as being being a valid document.

is there a nation that hasnt a history of being attacked?

Not as often as, or for and as many centuries as Isreal has.

As for Israel, they did real well against the Romans. Two thousand years later they try for self fulfilling prophesy.

Isreal prevails to this day. Just like the Bible said.

That aint the kind of prophecy that is hard to make!

Yep, it's pretty easy to get attacked, nearly destroyed, lose your independence, regain your statehood, and be a powerful nation again.

The modern history of israel is about 60 years. A little early to say that proves they are gonna last. Iran is fixing to turn them into a glowing bowl of glass.

1) Israel's history as a nation goes WAY further back than 60 years. Try Try a few hundred centuries. Need a link to prove it?

2) It's "a little early" to say that proves they are gonna last? Biblical texts are about as old as Israel. Yet Israel still prevails. Doesn't seem that early.

3) Israel's survived through much worse than Iran. Ever heard of the Holocaust? Compared to that, Iran is tummy ache.

 

[shinbits]

Au contraire, there indeed exists a country called Greece where these events took place. There exists a mountain called Olympus. Spears have been found. There are women named Athena who live in Greece. There must have been a Trojan war, because there is a university in So. Cal whose mascot is a Trojan.

This is evidence that cannot be ignored.

Your reading comprehension needs a tune up. I said the OP, right? Not the Illliad.

The OP specified that one example from the Illiad. Of that one specific story, there is indeed, no evidence.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Your reading comprehension needs a tune up. I said the OP, right? Not the Illliad.

The OP specified that one example from the Illiad. Of that one specific story, there is indeed, no evidence.

Re-read my post, and try, do try, to comprehend its relevance in relation to your comments.

 

[AV1611VET]

Au contraire, there indeed exists a country called Greece where these events took place.

The OP specified that one example from the Illiad. Of that one specific story, there is indeed, no evidence.

I wonder if these guys even realize that there would be no Greeks if it wasn't for Javan, Noah's grandson?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Did Javan, Noah's grandson start Greek mythology?

 

[random325nicaea]

It pwns the Illiad as far as being being a valid document.


Not as often as, or for and as many centuries as Isreal has.


Isreal prevails to this day. Just like the Bible said.



Yep, it's pretty easy to get attacked, nearly destroyed, lose your independence, regain your statehood, and be a powerful nation again.


1) Israel's history as a nation goes WAY further back than 60 years. Try Try a few hundred centuries. Need a link to prove it?

2) It's "a little early" to say that proves they are gonna last? Biblical texts are about as old as Israel. Yet Israel still prevails. Doesn't seem that early.

3) Israel's survived through much worse than Iran. Ever heard of the Holocaust? Compared to that, Iran is tummy ache.

"It pwns the Illiad as far as being being a valid document."

no it didn't?

the Illiad contain actual references to actual sites and (possibly) actual kings.

the bible does the same.

"Not as often as, or for and as many centuries as Isreal has."

i'd like to contest that.

Rome and China, greece (either in city states, or alliances thereof)

and keep in mind, we have documentation on these aswell.


"Isreal prevails to this day. Just like the Bible said."

did the bilbe say it would be a nation divided into 2 ethnic communities of which the jews have backing of most of the world developed nations?

like is said. if is wasn't for the west. Israel wouldn't exist at all. at least not at such a high power level as it is now.

btw, the romans pretty much whiped out the jewish state in 55AD when they ransaced Jerusalem (and build the colloseum with the spiols)

"Yep, it's pretty easy to get attacked, nearly destroyed, lose your independence, regain your statehood, and be a powerful nation again."

actually, it is.
want other shining examples?
the republic of the seven united netherlands
the city state of Athens
several dynasties in china (after mongol invasion)
or better yet, look at ALL those colonies that became their own countries after decolonialization.

and form if Indonesain state was pretty much dead for 200 years before the dutch were driven out in 1941.

really...what you are asking isn't all that challanging for someone who ah history in highschool.

btw, Israel wasn't "nearly completely whiped of the map" by the nazis. yes there where a lot of casualties, but there were also a lot in countries that won.
oh and Israel (the jews) didn't regain their own independance, they where given it, out of guilt. remember who controlled palestina after WWI and WWII?

"1) Israel's history as a nation goes WAY further back than 60 years. Try Try a few hundred centuries. Need a link to prove it?"

first fo all, you missed the words "modern" in the post you are replying too.

secondly, the histories of many other peoples go way back too, but this proves what?

"It's "a little early" to say that proves they are gonna last? Biblical texts are about as old as Israel. Yet Israel still prevails. Doesn't seem that early."

actually mcuh younger, if we;re countign the age of the actual text...not the stories. and even IF we used the ages of the stories (6000 years), the ethnic group probably predates the agricultural revolution. so no, there are most definately NOT the same age.

"Israel's survived through much worse than Iran. Ever heard of the Holocaust? Compared to that, Iran is tummy ache."

ever heard of the cultural revolution? stalins tyrrany? colonial empires?
reqonquista? the "colonization" of the new world? the wars the colonist had with all them indians? the armeniam genocide? the "stolen generation" of autralia (pretty much almost whiped out their culture).

you sir, have no right to play the jew victim card, when you haven't even considered all the other atrocities conducted by men against his fellow men.

(ps, Iran has had some nice civil wars and normal wars over the centuries aswell..)

really your makign this to easy for us historically educated...

 

[random325nicaea]

I wonder if these guys even realize that there would be no Greeks if it wasn't for Javan, Noah's grandson?

was javan slavic? because that's pretty much the ethical group that''s been inhabiting greece for millennia. they where the ones who brought what we now now as "ancient greek".
the pushed out the originigal inhabitants to the places out in the sea, like crete.

these people also had their own language, the neat "liniar A" and "liniar B".

or haven't you hear dof that yet?

 

[random325nicaea]

Your reading comprehension needs a tune up. I said the OP, right? Not the Illliad.

The OP specified that one example from the Illiad. Of that one specific story, there is indeed, no evidence.

you are the one who started claiming historical accuracy with the bible based on depictions of people and places. the moment you did that, the "illiad" came into question as a whole, not apart.

sorry but i believe that:
"Your reading comprehension needs a tune up."