Atheists LESS open minded than Religious

[DogmaHunter]

But I did engage. I intimated the assumptions required, the inherent propositions that need to be confirmed, and you seemed to largely agree with them.

As far as assumptions go like "we assume that reality is actually real", sure. Off course I agree with that. The thing is though, every single animal has to make that assumption. So to point that out is neither here nore there. Since we both need to make that basal assumption, I don't see how it supports either side.

But, you also implied some other assumptions wich were not universal. Such as the comment about dismissing things "out of hand". Those I did not agree with. Those are the ones that actually matter to the point at hand.

I certainly agree that dismissing things "out of hand" is a typical symptom of closed-mindedness. However, I don't think I personally know any atheist who dismisses the claims of theism "out-of-hand" for no reason.

Again, you are calling yourself the close-minded Atheist, which I have not once done.

Maybe you should take note of the thread we are currently posting in.
Also, I'm being called "closed minded" all the time by theists, specifically for my rejection of theism.

Yes, you didn't explicitly accuse me of such. However, nothing you posted on this subject makes me think that you would disagree with it. On the contrary, as I noted by pointed out your post #12.

On top of that, if you don't think I'm closed minded, you could have just said so, instead actually engaging my question on how I am closed-minded. You identifying my question as a "catch 22" and actually going in on it, kind of implicitly agrees with the idea that I as an atheist am closed-minded.

Honestly, can you really blame me that I drew the conclusion I drew?

Likewise my response in post 12 was on the nature of Empiric worldviews, their exclusionary tendency, which as I have said, theists also use methodologically on occasion.

And by doing so, you essentially implied that all people with an empirical outlook, are closed-minded, wouldn't you agree?

Indeed, you again didn't say that directly. But what else can I conclude when adding all that up?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

As far as assumptions go like "we assume that reality is actually real", sure. Off course I agree with that. The thing is though, every single animal has to make that assumption. So to point that out is neither here nore there. Since we both need to make that basal assumption, I don't see how it supports either side.

But, you also implied some other assumptions wich were not universal. Such as the comment about dismissing things "out of hand". Those I did not agree with. Those are the ones that actually matter to the point at hand.

I certainly agree that dismissing things "out of hand" is a typical symptom of closed-mindedness. However, I don't think I personally know any atheist who dismisses the claims of theism "out-of-hand" for no reason.



Maybe you should take note of the thread we are currently posting in.
Also, I'm being called "closed minded" all the time by theists, specifically for my rejection of theism.

Yes, you didn't explicitly accuse me of such. However, nothing you posted on this subject makes me think that you would disagree with it. On the contrary, as I noted by pointed out your post #12.

On top of that, if you don't think I'm closed minded, you could have just said so, instead actually engaging my question on how I am closed-minded. You identifying my question as a "catch 22" and actually going in on it, kind of implicitly agrees with the idea that I as an atheist am closed-minded.

Honestly, can you really blame me that I drew the conclusion I drew?



And by doing so, you essentially implied that all people with an empirical outlook, are closed-minded, wouldn't you agree?

Indeed, you again didn't say that directly. But what else can I conclude when adding all that up?

Dum excusare credis, accusas - When you believe you are excusing yourself, you are accusing yourself.

I think it fairly plain, if you read back on this exchange, where we respectively lie.

 

[Motherofkittens]

Dum excusare credis, accusas - When you believe you are excusing yourself, you are accusing yourself.

I think it fairly plain, if you read back on this exchange, where our positions respectively lie.

Just for the record I also thought you were calling atheists and domgahunter closed minded. Especially when you said it's a catch-22 and you wouldn't respond because of that.

I want to know how they define "open and closed minded". That's really important to know.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Anybody here wanna pay about $40 for the paper referenced? How are we supposed to discuss the contents? Since I'm open-minded and all, I'd like to consider the actual data.

I'm closed off from considering a proposition if the evidence you present is not adequate to warrant consideration. You can call that close-minded if you want, but if that's one's definition of close-minded I will wear that with pride. Conversely, I've found theists to be more credulous. Theists, however, seem to be more prone to believe in ghosts, guardian angels, alien visitation, psychics, tarot readings, horoscopes and so on. I'll consider if these things are true when the claims can be backed up in some way.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I want to know how they define "open and closed minded". That's really important to know.

it's only important if you care about the study to begin with. Personally, I'm always wary about studies that try to show that "Group X is Y". They're rarely helpful.

I mean, are any theists helped by this headline:

"Study Suggests Atheists Are More Intelligent Because They Can Override Religious Instinct"

 

[Motherofkittens]

it's only important if you care about the study to begin with. Personally, I'm always wary about studies that try to show that "Group X is Y". They're rarely helpful.

I mean, are any theists helped by this headline:

"Study Suggests Atheists Are More Intelligent Because They Can Override Religious Instinct"

I suppose that is true.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Atheists are less tolerant than religious people, study claims

A study of 788 people in the UK, France and Spain concluded that atheists and agnostics think of themselves as more open-minded than those with faith, but are are actually less tolerant to differing opinions and ideas. Religious believers "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives", according to psychology researchers at the private Catholic University of Louvain (UCL), Belgium's largest French-speaking university.

I'm not sure why you equivocate open mindedness with toleration. But we can settle this right now.

Let's pretend that Christians and atheists are both wrong. Let's pretend Islam is the correct religion.

Will you forsake Jesus and revere Muhammad instead? Will you continue to believe in your Jesus even though you know he's not real? Or will you give up on religion altogether?

Nearly every Christian (and I'd bet this includes you) *will refuse* to consider this hypothetical. Nearly every atheist *will* consider it and give an answer.

So please, tell us more about how Christians are more open minded.

 

[Meowzltov]

In my experience, whenever people accuse someone of not being "open minded", what they really mean, is that the person isn't gullible.

So when Atheists accuse us of being closed minded, they are really complimenting us?

 

[Meowzltov]

I'm not sure why you equivocate open mindedness with toleration.

It seems me that the article clarifies by saying that the religious "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives." For example, I integrate valuing the myth of Genesis 1 and the scientific knowledge of the Big Bang and Evolution. And it's not a lack of clarity. I'm well educated, have an IQ that allows me to do pretty much whatever I want to do in life, and the kind of thoughtful introversion that makes the time to reason things through.

I can integrate my tendency to agnosticism with my desire for Christian belief with the idea that faith is commitment despite doubt. The very fact that I am a Messianic Jew is a major integration of my Jewish identity and my Catholic faith. I see various truths in other religions, although I do not believe they are as excellent as mine, and I try to incorporate those truths into my own faith, whether it is the valuing of the natural world from Native American Spirituality, or Wu Wei from Taoism, or Mindfulness from Buddhism. But I'm still confident in Catholicism--that's my home.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It seems me that the article clarifies by saying that the religious "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives." For example, I integrate valuing the myth of Genesis 1 and the scientific knowledge of the Big Bang and Evolution. And it's not a lack of clarity. I'm well educated, have an IQ that allows me to do pretty much whatever I want to do in life, and the kind of thoughtful introversion that makes the time to reason things through.

I can integrate my tendency to agnosticism with my desire for Christian belief with the idea that faith is commitment despite doubt. The very fact that I am a Messianic Jew is a major integration of my Jewish identity and my Catholic faith. I see various truths in other religions, although I do not believe they are as excellent as mine, and I try to incorporate those truths into my own faith, whether it is the valuing of the natural world from Native American Spirituality, or Wu Wei from Taoism, or Mindfulness from Buddhism. But I'm still confident in Catholicism--that's my home.

Thank you for proving my point. 15/Love.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Atheists are less tolerant than religious people, study claims

A study of 788 people in the UK, France and Spain concluded that atheists and agnostics think of themselves as more open-minded than those with faith, but are are actually less tolerant to differing opinions and ideas. Religious believers "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives", according to psychology researchers at the private Catholic University of Louvain (UCL), Belgium's largest French-speaking university.

I can see that with being open minded when it comes to religious experiences or possibilities of "other stuff" out there. I would think they may be more open minded when it comes to things like not judging people for alternative, experimental lifestyles though.

 

[Silmarien]

Atheists are less tolerant than religious people, study claims

A study of 788 people in the UK, France and Spain concluded that atheists and agnostics think of themselves as more open-minded than those with faith, but are are actually less tolerant to differing opinions and ideas. Religious believers "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives", according to psychology researchers at the private Catholic University of Louvain (UCL), Belgium's largest French-speaking university.

I do wonder what the results would have been if this had been done in the United States rather than in Europe. It may have more to do with these societies being so secularized that religious believers are the ones who have been marginalized in some way or who are less likely to adhere to a specific way of thinking because of peer pressure.

Nearly every Christian (and I'd bet this includes you) *will refuse* to consider this hypothetical. Nearly every atheist *will* consider it and give an answer.

You do realize that you're making sweeping generalizations about religious believers and atheists, condemning one and congratulating the other, in a thread about atheists being less tolerant than they think they are?

I would be interested in hearing the atheist answer to your hypothetical, though. I think it's a difficult one for a theist to answer, at least if you've got reasons beyond "I don't believe in divine revelation" to reject particular religions. I would have serious questions if Islam were true, but assuming they could be worked out, I'd be fine joining up with the Sufis. There are people out there who actually have converted from Christianity to Islam or vice versa, so I'm not sure why you think people don't consider this hypothetical.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You do realize that you're making sweeping generalizations about religious believers and atheists, condemning one and congratulating the other, in a thread about atheists being less tolerant than they think they are?

I was responding more to the title than the content of the thread. Atheists are far more open minded. Case in point: nearly all atheists at this point in history are former theists.

I would be interested in hearing the atheist answer to your hypothetical, though. I think it's a difficult one for a theist to answer, at least if you've got reasons beyond "I don't believe in divine revelation" to reject particular religions. I would have serious questions if Islam were true, but assuming they could be worked out, I'd be fine joining up with the Sufis. There are people out there who actually have converted from Christianity to Islam or vice versa, so I'm not sure why you think people don't consider this hypothetical.

Here's my answer. I will not worship any deity that demands it, especially an evil deity like the God of Islam. While I am not allowed to comment on the God of Christianity in this manner, I'll leave my view of him to your imagination.

 

[Silmarien]

I was responding more to the title than the content of the thread. Atheists are far more open minded. Case in point: nearly all atheists at this point in history are former theists.

Changing your mind on something doesn't make you more open-minded. Often it has the opposite result, since now you're convinced that you know both sides of the story fully and that everyone on the other side believes exactly what you once did. I see this a lot with ex-theists, who often have approaches towards religion that frankly make no sense to me.

Here's my answer. I will not worship any deity that demands it, especially an evil deity like the God of Islam. While I am not allowed to comment on the God of Christianity in this manner, I'll leave my view of him to your imagination.

I actually used to feel similarly. It was some reading in Islamic mysticism that started to shift the way I viewed the concept of divine submission, so sometimes it is a matter of perspective.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Changing your mind on something doesn't make you more open-minded.

Already you lost me.

Often it has the opposite result, since now you're convinced that you know both sides of the story fully and that everyone on the other side believes exactly what you once did.

I see a lot of Christians on here who would've baffled the Christian version of me from years past.

I see this a lot with ex-theists, who often have approaches towards religion that frankly make no sense to me.

Maybe talk to more Christians then. I guarantee it will make even less sense.

I actually used to feel similarly. It was some reading in Islamic mysticism that started to shift the way I viewed the concept of divine submission, so sometimes it is a matter of perspective.

Then why aren't you Muslim?

 

[Hawkins]

Atheists are less tolerant than religious people, study claims

A study of 788 people in the UK, France and Spain concluded that atheists and agnostics think of themselves as more open-minded than those with faith, but are are actually less tolerant to differing opinions and ideas. Religious believers "seem to better perceive and integrate diverging perspectives", according to psychology researchers at the private Catholic University of Louvain (UCL), Belgium's largest French-speaking university.

I speculate the same. Not only that, I speculate that they can be very much logical and "open minded" but only up to the point where they start to sense that the argument is no longer on their side. And from that point onward, they can throw out all kinds of equivocation and to the best of their intellectual dishonesty.

On the other hand, Christians don't use to argue equivocally.

 

[Meowzltov]

I speculate the same. Not only that, I speculate that they can be very much logical and "open minded" but only up to the point where they start to sense that the argument is no longer on their side. And from that point onward, they can throw out all kinds of equivocation and to the best of their intellectual dishonesty.

On the other hand, Christians don't use to argue equivocally.

The article says that More religious are open minded, but it doesn't say how much more. I don't think its that much. There are plenty of close minded folks on both sides of the fence.

 

[Meowzltov]

I do wonder what the results would have been if this had been done in the United States rather than in Europe.

That's a really good point. I certainly think the Christians here on CF have more close minded sorts than open minded sorts, just as atheists do. But then again, the study doesn't say what that ration is. It only compares the two groups, and it doesn't say how large the difference is.

 

[Silmarien]

Maybe talk to more Christians then. I guarantee it will make even less sense.

Yes, but the fundamentalist is emotionally invested in whatever unhealthy remix of the religion they have concocted for themselves. If an atheist is similarly emotionally invested in some caricature of the religion, any claim to being more tolerant goes out the window.

Then why aren't you Muslim?

Do you need to be a Muslim to think that anything of real value could come out of the Islamic world? What was the topic of this thread again?

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, but the fundamentalist is emotionally invested in whatever unhealthy remix of the religion they have concocted for themselves. If an atheist is similarly emotionally invested in some caricature of the religion, any claim to being more tolerant goes out the window.

If you talk to fundamentalist Christians or New Atheists, you are not going to find open mindedness.