Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

The survival of the Jewish people against the odds. Reading the history drew me to believe that they were being protected and that I wanted to be one of them.

Since unbelievers here are always asking for evidence, I find this to be beautiful.

 

[razeontherock]

This has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that no atheist deliberately and maliciously (as often presented) rejects God and rejects the offer of eternal life.

This is simply false. Or if you prefer a definition of atheism that exclude atheists, then use 'unbeliever;' same results either way.

 

[benglobal]

But I did not manipulate anything. I simply quoted what Christ said.

Here it is again:

"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matt 13:49-50.

Do you disagree with this?

No I did not say you manipulated it but that it had been manipulated in my view through mans desire to dominate through fear and control using the vehicle of religion. No I don't agree with the quote otherwise why would I have made my original statement.

 

[Skavau]

This is simply false. Or if you prefer a definition of atheism that exclude atheists, then use 'unbeliever;' same results either way.

So then do you believe that all atheists maliciously and deliberately reject God then? If not all, then only some?

 

[New_Believer]

It's pretty clear in the Bible. Even people who go to church and claim to be a Christian can go to Hell. But I personally don't pass those judgements on people.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christians are not necessarily better people than atheists, but they have accepted the gift of eternal life. We all sin, Christians are not an exception to this. Although it is our job to live as Christ did.

 

[benglobal]

Notice how his position is countered by the reality that the writers of the New Testament cut out millions of financial contributors by their nasty hellish ideology.

Now look at this again:

​

benglobal's religion is the ad campaign of every beer company in the world.

It makes no sense that a power group would want to rule the world by rejecting so many people and making limits on behaviors.

I follow no religion nor did I mention any power groups desire to rule the world. But feel free to make it up as you go if you wish.

 

[razeontherock]

atheists do not knowingly and deliberately reject Christianity

This is still a false statement, no matter how often you repeat it. There are atheists that knowingly and deliberately reject Christianity, and we have some participating in this thread. Don't let the facts affect your opinion though.

 

[razeontherock]

The "free from constraints" part is necessary to the definition of free will. It's the "free" part for pete's sake.

Wait, who's the one saying there is no free will? So in order to have that, there can't be gravity, the need to breathe, or any other aspect of reality. Any Prof teaching that would just have to fail me and do it quick before I make a monkey out of him in front of his students. I don't have time for such foolishness, nor will I allow it to infect my mind.

Your definition is rejected for being perverse.

 

[Skavau]

This is still a false statement, no matter how often you repeat it. There are atheists that knowingly and deliberately reject Christianity, and we have some participating in this thread. Don't let the facts affect your opinion though.

In what meaning are you using the word 'knowingly' here, may I ask?

My original statement that you objected to was this:

This has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that no atheist deliberately and maliciously (as often presented) rejects God and rejects the offer of eternal life.

You also objected earlier to the following that I said to Zaac:

This is simply untrue. The 'some' that you are referring to are simply unaware of God's 'giving his life' and are unaware even of God existing. The fact that you would make excuses for that groups eternal torture is both troubling and nonsensical.

It was in response to his claim that atheists deliberately reject God and the offer of eternal life. Do you hold that there are atheists that willfully reject heaven and hold that atheists may reject God (or do reject God) on the basis of malice as people such as Zaac and citizenthom have argued?

 

[razeontherock]

So then do you believe that all atheists maliciously and deliberately reject God then? If not all, then only some?

It should be obvious that not all atheists, unbelievers, and otherwise non-Christian type people could possibly maliciously and deliberately reject G-d. And note that rejection doesn't need to be malicious in any way. There are also degrees of deliberation. I recently encountered a statistic that something like 1.5 billion have never heard the Gospel preached. I have no idea how they arrived at that and I won't defend the number, but surely you recognize you can't lump all people into the same pigeonhole?

So then the true statement we're left with is that some atheists willfully reject all knowledge and concept of G-d. I don't understand why this is difficult for you. Also, the Judgment of the Gospel concerns itself only with those who knowingly disobey. Now I have noticed you enjoy being enraged over your pet peeve, but a large portion of it just evaporated. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Skavau]

It should be obvious that not all atheists, unbelievers, and otherwise non-Christian type people could possibly maliciously and deliberately reject G-d.

Good. Then you depart from the views of Zaac, who I was originally responding to.

And note that rejection doesn't need to be malicious in any way. There are also degrees of deliberation. I recently encountered a statistic that something like 1.5 billion have never heard the Gospel preached. I have no idea how they arrived at that and I won't defend the number, but surely you recognize you can't lump all people into the same pigeonhole?

Of course. Which is why I was arguing against Zaac making the blanket statement that atheists knowingly refuse the opportunity to enter heaven.

So then the true statement we're left with is that some atheists willfully reject all knowledge and concept of G-d. I don't understand why this is difficult for you.

Because in the context it was used in by Zaac (which you appeared to be defending) suggested that all atheists secretly know that God exists and reject him and his promises anyway.

Also, the Judgment of the Gospel concerns itself only with those who knowingly disobey. Now I have noticed you enjoy being enraged over your pet peeve, but a large portion of it just evaporated. Sorry 'bout that.

The judgment of eternal torture, or even torture for those who knowingly disobey would still be just as horrendous.

 

[razeontherock]

It's pretty clear in the Bible. Even people who go to church and claim to be a Christian can go to Hell. But I personally don't pass those judgements on people.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christians are not necessarily better people than atheists, but they have accepted the gift of eternal life. We all sin, Christians are not an exception to this. Although it is our job to live as Christ did.

Give the lady a cigar! Oh wait, that's not right ... anyway, +1

 

[razeontherock]

In what meaning are you using the word 'knowingly' here, may I ask?

Hmmm. Knowing ... seems to be basic English. You have previously asserted it to be your first language, so i fail to recognize any need for the question.

It was in response to his claim that atheists deliberately reject God and the offer of eternal life. Do you hold that there are atheists that willfully reject heaven

That is a loaded question. By definition, I would expect an atheist not to think there is any such thing as heaven so already your question is not sensible.

and hold that atheists may reject God (or do reject God) on the basis of malice as people such as Zaac and citizenthom have argued?

Some do this, yes. I can't think of any other condition like that other than satanism though. Many others reject God not on a basis of malice. (Or should I say not knowingly malicious?

 

[whisperingdragon33]

Good question.

 

[razeontherock]

all atheists secretly know that God exists and reject him and his promises anyway.

How diabolical! MWAHAHAHA

The judgment of eternal torture, or even torture for those who knowingly disobey would still be just as horrendous.

Whether the doctrine of eternal torture is true or false, this much I agree with. But open your eyes to the world we find ourselves living in! We find horrendous things all around. Pretending they don't exist is no solution. With natural things, we learn to cope, and usually by preparation. Why should the Spiritual realm be any different?

 

[SithDoughnut]

(Or should I say not knowingly malicious?

You can't be unknowingly malicious...

 

[Skavau]

Whether the doctrine of eternal torture is true or false, this much I agree with. But open your eyes to the world we find ourselves living in! We find horrendous things all around. Pretending they don't exist is no solution. With natural things, we learn to cope, and usually by preparation. Why should the Spiritual realm be any different?

I will just respond to this for now.

First of all I'm glad to see that you think eternal torture is horrendous. About time you said so.

Secondly, to contrast the potential of eternal torture with that of natural evil (a misnomer in itself) is inaccurate. We can't do much about natural disasters. We might someday have the technology to vastly alter weather conditions in our favour to prevent tornadoes but preventing atrocities such as earthquakes are impossible. We can only respond to them. This is simply not true of the 'spiritual' where eternal torture, if it did exist would be under the will of God and therefore be a moral evil. I don't distinguish between intelligent agents acting unjustly either in reality or in fantasy.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Wait, who's the one saying there is no free will?

Me.

So in order to have that, there can't be gravity, the need to breathe, or any other aspect of reality.

What on earth does this have to do with free will? Absolutely nothing...

Any Prof teaching that would just have to fail me and do it quick before I make a monkey out of him in front of his students.

Uh huh...

I don't have time for such foolishness, nor will I allow it to infect my mind.

A very typical Christian response. I've heard more than one Christian radio evangelist warn against higher learning. I'm not surprised, given the fact that so many Christian teenagers deconvert when they go to college. Learning to use critical thinking will do that.

Your definition is rejected for being perverse.

It's not my definition. Thirty seconds of searching on Google will net you dozens of links that define free will similarly to what I presented. I'd suggest you look for yourself, but something tells me you wouldn't.

 

[razeontherock]

You can't be unknowingly malicious...

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

[razeontherock]

First of all I'm glad to see that you think eternal torture is horrendous. About time you said so.

Anyone with flesh would say so. This has been one of my main purposes for engaging you on this subject.

Secondly, to contrast the potential of eternal torture with that of natural evil (a misnomer in itself) is inaccurate.

Maybe that's why i didn't say that? I'm not that fond of the word horrendous, but I did use an apples to apples comparison. You distorting that so it is no longer apples to apples is deceitful, and I don't appreciate it.

We can't do much about natural disasters.

Why move the goalposts to natural disasters? If you were an Arab living in your homeland, scorpions might be a fact of life. As well as cobras and other nasty things. These are not disasters - until one strikes. Urbanized areas like to seem free of such, but NYC's rat population is legendary, and your turf has a legend of Peter somebody ...

We might someday have the technology to vastly alter weather conditions in our favour to prevent tornadoes but preventing atrocities such as earthquakes are impossible. We can only respond to them. This is simply not true of the 'spiritual' where eternal torture, if it did exist would be under the will of God and therefore be a moral evil. I don't distinguish between intelligent agents acting unjustly either in reality or in fantasy.

So explain why one of the most venemous creatures on the planet is common in and around US households? Why did God create scorpions, cobras, man eating tigers, great white sharks, etc? Open your eyes man; your puppy dogs and rainbows version of reality does not exist. You may complain all this is unjust and we have a saying for that; "life isn't fair." Doesn't change a thing, and we still need to deal with it.