Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Jazer]

So there's something about being in "hell" which is actually preferable to being in heaven?

I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live (deu30)

 

[Rajni]

Yes OP if you aren't the member of the right fan club you go to hell.

Yep, it would seem that Jesus is not the active ingredient in salvation but rather the ability of mere humans to espouse Correct Belief™.

 

[ranunculus]

Your arguement is meaningless and circular because you present no evidence. You have to have a controled study. You take the people who believe in the God of the Bible and compare them to the people who do NOT believe in the God of the Bible. If in your study the people who DO NOT believe in the God of the Bible are more happy, healthy and content. Then by all means go for it.

I don't know what you mean by me not presenting evidence and that my argument is circular because of it. I was making an argument similar to Euthyphro's dilemma about how you can 'know' that god is good.
The experiment you propose where you compare factors like happiness and well-being is completely irrelevant to the point I was making about god being good. I don't know why you brought it up.
But since you did, let me give you some facts about non religious people.

"A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

Consider that at the societal level, murder rates are far lower in secularized nations such as Japan or Sweden than they are in the much more religious United States, which also has a much greater portion of its population in prison. Even within this country, those states with the highest levels of church attendance, such as Louisiana and Mississippi, have significantly higher murder rates than far less religious states such as Vermont and Oregon.

As individuals, atheists tend to score high on measures of intelligence, especially verbal ability and scientific literacy. They tend to raise their children to solve problems rationally, to make up their own minds when it comes to existential questions and to obey the golden rule. They are more likely to practice safe sex than the strongly religious are, and are less likely to be nationalistic or ethnocentric. They value freedom of thought. "

source: Why do Americans still dislike atheists? - The Washington Post

Of course it maybe difficult for you to make a determination as to who believes in the God of the Bible because you do not even know what to look for. You lump all people who claim to believe in God together, without even making a determination if it is really the God of the Bible they believe in.

I do not lump all believers together, I wasn't even talking about believers, I don't know where you read this in my post. Please stop creating strawmen.

In my case I compare my life to before I read the Bible to after I read the Bible and started to apply it to my life. For me it is a no brainer. My life is way better now then it was back then. There is no way I would ever go back to a life without God. I can only give a witness and a testimony to what I have found to be true.

Personal experience isn't evidence or proof. If your life is better with god than without, good for you. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs. But not their own facts.

 

[briareos]

Yep, it would seem that Jesus is not the active ingredient in salvation but rather the ability of mere humans to espouse Correct Belief™.

Well that isn't what the bible actually says... so it is completely illogical to make such a criticism of biblical teaching.

 

[Rajni]

I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.

So those who choose Christ don't every experience death, sickness, curses and poverty?

If God would be "considerate" enough to spare nonbelievers the misery of heaven with Him, don't you think He would be considerate enough to spare them the miseries outside of it?

 

[Rajni]

Well that isn't what the bible actually says... so it is completely illogical to make such a criticism of biblical teaching.

Then why is that what folks here are essentially saying, if they truly thought that wasn't what the bible is saying?

 

[Zipi]

ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

So your saying that if a christain who is good but lets say does not want to go to heaven, god would not let them into heaven because as you said ' because there are people who do not want to be there'

Please correct me if you so need to.

 

[BleedingHeart]

To say that God=good is arbitrary morality. You know how a dictator says that anything he does is good? Whether its gassing a few million Jews or murdering people just because they are Christian (Stalin), or just kicking a puppy to death because he had a bad day?
That's essentially you guys are making God out to be. He can do whatever he wants, to whoever He wants, whenever He wants, for whatever reason.....and it's automatically good because He did it.
Now, maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way, but that seems to be exactly what many of you have implied.

 

[briareos]

Then why is that what folks here are essentially saying, if they truly thought that wasn't what the bible is saying?

I don't know if they are, or why they are... and such simply doesn't matter concerning the bibles teaching, which is what your statement referred to.

 

[ajtoce]

John 3

Jesus said that you must be reborn to enter, or even see, the kingdom of heaven. You must understand this: Jesus didn't come to make "bad" people be "good". He came to give life to spiritually dead people. (all of us are spiritually dead in Adam).

 

[Rajni]

I don't know if they are, or why they are... and such simply doesn't matter concerning the bibles teaching, which is what your statement referred to.

They are. Correct belief=salvation. See the following previously-made statements:

The bible lists the requirements for entering heaven, believing in God is one of them.

God cannot forgive someone who does not even acknowledge the need for forgiveness.

I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.

Again, to hear the standard Christian take on it, salvation lies not in Christ, but on Correct Belief / Correct Choice. If the salvific power of Christ's sacrifice is, like gravity, a reality that stands on it's own despite what we believe about it, then the effects thereof should be, like gravity, universally available to all regardless of what they personally believe about it.
.

 

[Jazer]

So your saying that if a christain who is good but lets say does not want to go to heaven, god would not let them into heaven because as you said ' because there are people who do not want to be there' Please correct me if you so need to.

ajtoce answered this question: "Jesus said that you must be reborn to enter, or even see, the kingdom of heaven. You must understand this: Jesus didn't come to make "bad" people be "good". He came to give life to spiritually dead people. (all of us are spiritually dead in Adam)". We can explain this better for you if you want to know more about it.

 

[briareos]

chaela

They are. Correct belief=salvation. See the following previously-made statements:

The statements that you quoted are not identical to the criticism you made neither do they imply that meaning you ascribe to them. Not at all.

Again, to hear the standard Christian take on it, salvation lies not in Christ, but on Correct Belief / Correct Choice.

You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.

If the salvific power of Christ's sacrifice is, like gravity, a reality that stands on it's own despite what we believe about it, then the effects thereof should be, like gravity, universally available to all regardless of what they personally believe about it.

The error here is that you have inferred that someone says Christ's salvation can be active despite what a person believes.

So on both counts, you unfairly and inaccuratly represent the beleifs you oppose.

 

[Jazer]

source: Why do Americans still dislike atheists? - The Washington Post

I think your confusing atheism with secular humanism. I was raised as a humanist and I find the teaching of the Bible to be a lot better. I understand the confusion with people like Bush & McCain that claim to be a christian and yet they believe a lot different than I do. I am confused about it myself. How can they claim to be a Christian and then blow the arms and legs off of babys and children. All I can say is governments fight wars, not christians. If your fighting a war you are not representing christianity your representing the government that is paying you to do what your doing. We long for when Jesus returns and the 1000 year reign of Christ. They will beat their swords into plows and there will be no more war.

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isa 2:4)

 

[citizenthom]

You can only label this wrong if you label the inability to recognise God as something that is wrong and then you get into the situation of thought-crime. The idea that you can be condemned for what you think.

It is not an issue of an inability to recognize God, but a refusal to do so. Usually that is rooted in a refusal to admit there is a higher authority than oneself, or than some other concept to which one is loyal. There's a reason atheists are, and always have been, rare as a percentage of the human population: the existence of a higher power is in-built knowledge in us all. And yes, a refusal to seek out the identity and nature of that higher power--especially when such knowledge is readily available--is itself wrong.

But that is not what dooms us; our sin dooms us.

The only reason humans do not punish evil thoughts is that we recognize we have no valid way to determine the wrongness of people's thoughts. God, on the other hand, has perfect knowledge of not only all our deeds, but all our evil motives.

That said, the next time I meet someone who a.) has never actually done something sinful, OR b.) does not KNOW they have done something sinful in his heart, will be the first.

 

[citizenthom]

Again, to hear the standard Christian take on it, salvation lies not in Christ, but on Correct Belief / Correct Choice. If the salvific power of Christ's sacrifice is, like gravity, a reality that stands on it's own despite what we believe about it, then the effects thereof should be, like gravity, universally available to all regardless of what they personally believe about it.
.

Christ's sacrifice does have force independent of your belief about it; but your enjoying that gift is necessarily dependent on your accepting it. A gift forced is not a gift. Gifts require acceptance.

God was not under any obligation to PROVIDE salvation through Christ; He is under no obligation to force it onto you.

 

[The Philosoraptor]

Well that isn't what the bible actually says... so it is completely illogical to make such a criticism of biblical teaching.

But who says the entirety of Christianity is contained in the Bible?

chaela
The error here is that you have inferred that someone says Christ's salvation can be active despite what a person believes.

So on both counts, you unfairly and inaccuratly represent the beleifs you oppose.

Ok, I'm going to go all Hicksian on you here; let's suppose all religions are different interpretations of the same truth, and that Christians reach heaven through their Faith in Christs sacrifice only to meet a load of Vikings who had prayed to Thor and some very confused Buddhists just for good measure. Perhaps the active unit in salvation is Faith, rather than Faith in any particular religion?

 

[briareos]

The Philosoraptor

Awesome name!

But who says the entirety of Christianity is contained in the Bible?

Well rather than seeming incredibly pedantic in a rebuttal or responding to this non relevant point of insight.... I will simply say... that it doesn't really weigh in on the topic of my conversation with him. My conversation concerned remaining accurate to biblical teaching when evaluating it.

Ok, I'm going to go all Hicksian on you here; let's suppose all religions are different interpretations of the same truth, and that Christians reach heaven through their Faith in Christs sacrifice only to meet a load of Vikings who had prayed to Thor and some very confused Buddhists just for good measure. Perhaps the active unit in salvation is Faith, rather than Faith in any particular religion?

Let's suppose? Ok... then "wow I was wrong" that would be my sudden realization. I don't really see the relevance here. You responded to comments of mine whos purpose where to show that Chaela did not accuratly represent the beleifs he opposed and his rebuttal of those beleifs were incorrect by the same fault.

I do infact believe that only Christians will enter heaven, becuase that is what the bible teaches me to believe. Awesome name!

 

[Rajni]

chaela



The statements that you quoted are not identical to the criticism you made neither do they imply that meaning you ascribe to them. Not at all.


You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.

Briareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?

The error here is that you have inferred that someone says Christ's salvation can be active despite what a person believes.

That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.
.

Christ's sacrifice does have force independent of your belief about it; but your enjoying that gift is necessarily dependent on your accepting it. A gift forced is not a gift. Gifts require acceptance.

Not necessarily. Our very existence, life itself, is a gift, and our acceptance of it was not required prior to our receiving that gift. I see eternal life as the same type of gift. Not all gifts are of the sort exchanged on Christmas day, where one can return it in 30 days if they have the receipt.

 

[ranunculus]

It is not an issue of an inability to recognize God, but a refusal to do so.

So your dismisal of Vishnu is not an inablility to recognize him but a downright refusal to do so? Or isn't it more plausible that your inability to recognize vishnu is, mmmmmmmmmmm let me think, because he isn't real?!

Usually that is rooted in a refusal to admit there is a higher authority than oneself, or than some other concept to which one is loyal.

Don't pretend you can look into other people minds and read their thoughts.
An atheist has the same reasons for not believing in your god as you do for not believing in the Greek pantheon.

There's a reason atheists are, and always have been, rare as a percentage of the human population: the existence of a higher power is in-built knowledge in us all. And yes, a refusal to seek out the identity and nature of that higher power--especially when such knowledge is readily available--is itself wrong.

Even if it's true that human beings are hard wired to hold a god concept (I don't believe this), it doesn't make that god concept true. Or would you say that because there are 800 million Hindus that means their god concept is true?