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Because I consider it an evil belief.Philothei said:Then if you do not believe it why would it make any difference to you whether some others do or not?
Ya know, I may not agree with it, but I really do admire your logic and reason.I agree, but previously (post #594) you had said that there is no sin in
hell. If there are people in hell, but no sin in hell, I'm thinking those people
would be sinless at that point, in which case why would they need to be
there receiving endless torment?
I know this is mainstream Christian belief. The fact that we can even 'achieve' infractions is due to our own imperfection as mandated by God. Created sick and commanded to be well. God is ultimately responsible here either by letting us be 'infected' by original sin or by deliberately establishing us as imperfect moral agents.
That's an obscene standard. We both agree on our imperfection (whether created or not) but to insist that one can only be considered 'good' at no infractions is frankly, unrealistic.
Whether it is eternal torment or eternal torture does not concern me remotely. Either is abhorrent.
But before I go on, I don't quite know what you believe here: Do you believe that all Non-Christians will languish in eternal torment?
I have no idea of God's motives and desires in what he logically had to do for us to be imperfect. But alas, it can be discussed elsewhere.Frumious said:This alone is a broad topic. And I will say that I respectfully disagree with your ideas here concerning God's motives and desires. And perhaps we can go over this in another thread.
That is our 'curse' at birthright, which renders the point meaningless. Of course we could not live up to standards that we are not capable of.I believe that is exactly the point. That we as people in and of ourselves are not good and are not perfect. (That's the point of the Law).
I might be. But my 'torment' would not be directed or allowed by another being and no-one would argue that it is or could be justified. You have to believe that God allows those who were not able to believe in him to be tormented.I would encourage you to investigate more thoroughly, perhaps I could paint an example: You were told you could have 10 million dollars if you just walked next door, you chose to ignore that message and someone you know went and collected the money. Wouldn't you be tormented by the fact that it could have been yours? This is not the same as torture.
You didn't think to bring it up until I pointed out that the Bible verse you posted smeared us all as liars and even then you didn't directly refer to us as liars until I harangued you about it.
No I'm not. I genuinely do not believe in a God(s).
The direct preachments of evil.
'God' has not shown me anything.
Except, as I have to keep reminding you: I don't believe that the 'lake of fire' exists and thus am not choosing anything.
.How is reminding you that I don't believe in a God, but recognise that some people attribute literature to a God at all idolatry or the world centering around me. A complete non-sequitor
The existence of people is enough to disprove your doctrine as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.
Non-sequitor. Does not follow. Supposing the above to remotely true then this must be asked: If I get drunk to the point where I die then did my decision to drink that night mean that I necessarily chose to die?
I've been given a hateful and disturbing account of the gospel. One that I would never ever bow down to.
I don't believe there is a God and I don't believe that there is such a thing as 'God's truth'.
I imagine you do believe that, yes. Hence why you're an anti-intellectual.
Then the 'Holy Spirit' is wrong - or what you are hearing is wrong. You are simply wrong about Muslims.
No I didn't. I am convinced that I wrote it. I cannot just suspend my belief that I wrote it. That would be denial and I would still secretly believe it. I suggest you understand the nature of belief before going down this futile path.
I love how you say that with such sincerity and conviction. You just keep using all the fruits that intellectuals have given you that allow you to sit there at your computer deriding empiricism, rationalism and all knowledge per se in favour of blind faith.
How so? You are a solipsist.
But you believe those that end up in the 'lake of fire' deserving nothing less. You support it as moral and that is what is disgusting.
You are evil.
You claim to know that there is an 'all-knowing' and since you have denied the understanding and accuracy that knowledge and empiricism has given to us concerning reality you can have no way to examine whether or not you are truly right.
Is it breathtaking that people might choose to resist a tyrant?
But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."
I would think that genuine repentance wouldn't need the threat of
punishment as it's motivation.
Is fear of punishment the only reason to enter into a relationship with
the Lord? It seems I have seen other, more noble reasons for doing so
presented in the bible...
.That judgment and penalty is supposedly what Jesus took upon
Himself in mankind's place.... unless the crucifixion didn't actually
happen. To hear some Christians tell it, Jesus' sacrifice -- if it happened
at all -- didn't really change anything
If I was going to do that, I would have already done so.Zaac said:Sounds like you thought you were setting a trap for me so you could report it.
Yes, you're quite the 'type'.But like I said, if you had directly asked the question, you would have directly gotten the answer to the question. I know that I don't strike you as the type who is too timid to say that all atheists are liars.
I am not browbeating anything. It is simply so. I do not believe in a God(s).You can browbeat it. The result is the same.
It is absolutely my choice to believe that what you preach, whether you believe it ordained by God or otherwise as preachments of evil.If that's what you think God's word is, then it is , again, your CHOICE to do so.
Of course, since you reject empiricism and all fields of knowledge you have no way whatsoever of knowing that his 'word' exists. In any case, your belief again requires you to reject reality.He says in His word He has. I trust Him more than I trust you.
That has nothing to do with anything. You cannot choose to go somewhere that you don't believe exists. It does not compute. It makes no sense. Non-Sequitor.Except that I have to keep reminding you that you don't have to believe it. The truth isn't going away because you don't want to believe it.
See above. Non-Sequitor.So in CHOOSINg to not believe God's truth you are CHOOSING to send yourself to an eternal spot in the Lake of Fire
Again: Me reminding you that I don't believe in a God is not an example of overarching egoism. The only thing I could be 'guilty' of wanting is not wanting eternal torture and the only thing I could be accused of refusal of is the refusal to accept with no compromise the suggestion that I should accept eternal torture as moral. I will not.Everything you seem to say is about what YOU want or what YOU refuse to do. You have established yourself as your own little god.
Fine. The existence of people is enough to disprove your beliefs as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.I don't have a doctrine.
It is a relevant hypothetical. If you're going to make the stupid claim that people 'choose' things that they don't intend then it has to be put to you specifically just to show you how pathetic your claim really is.Another hypothetical.
And I wouldn't bow down to the God of your gospel either.I would hope that you would't bow down to an account. God has never asked anyone to bow down to an account.
Except he hasn't and your insistence that he has in favour of my own words is a direct example of how you literally deny reality in favour your beliefs. The ultimate in solipsism.And thus in accordance with what God's word says, you and others who feel that way are liars because HE has shown you.
Except your understanding seems to be repeatedly wrong.My Father is THE Know It All. I go to Him for HIS understanding, thus I need not be an intellectual.
Yet they are not choosing to go to the lake of fire and so the stupid claim that they are is rendered incorrect.If a person professes to be a Muslim, he is rejecting Jesus Christ and will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.
This is not mere 'playing with words'. It is about you using the term belief to mean something that it is not. You misrepresent the nature of belief in order to suit your own bigotry. I am not choosing again to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. It is not possible to choose to go somewhere that you do not believe exists.Play with words all you want. You reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and you are CHOOSING to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Yeah, that's all you can say when confronted with your complete hypocrisy. You gorge yourself on the fruits of modern civilization and then when you feel self-satisfied enough talk with glee about your own contempt and antipathy towards it. How selfish of you sir.:lol:
A solipsistic one at that.I'm a follower of Jesus Christ.
Then I would do. So be it.We deserve whatever a Holy God deems as just. If you find my alignment with GOD disgusting, it's because you first found what God says to be disgusting.
Calling you evil is not persecution. It is borderline accurate fact on your character at this point. i suspect though that you were hoping for such a direct claim so that you could boost your potential in the afterlife, self-serving and infantile as it is.Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Matthew 5:11-12
I don't think you even understood what I said.Yet after saying all that if you continue to reject Jesus Christ as your Lord in Savior in lieu of you, you wil still spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.
That's an oxymoron.You seem to have no problem being a slave to yourself and what you want.
I might be. But my 'torment' would not be directed or allowed by another being and no-one would argue that it is or could be justified. You have to believe that God allows those who were not able to believe in him to be tormented.
There's a big difference.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7556526-79/#post57479965
If I was going to do that, I would have already done so.
Yes, you're quite the 'type'.
I am not browbeating anything. It is simply so. I do not believe in a God(s).
It is absolutely my choice to believe that what you preach, whether you believe it ordained by God or otherwise as preachments of evil.
Of course, since you reject empiricism and all fields of knowledge you have no way whatsoever of knowing that his 'word' exists. In any case, your belief again requires you to reject reality.
That has nothing to do with anything. You cannot choose to go somewhere that you don't believe exists. It does not compute. It makes no sense. Non-Sequitor.
In addition, I never said that the truth (whatever that is) would go away on behalf of my disagreement.
See above. Non-Sequitor.
Again: Me reminding you that I don't believe in a God is not an example of overarching egoism. The only thing I could be 'guilty' of wanting is not wanting eternal torture and the only thing I could be accused of refusal of is the refusal to accept with no compromise the suggestion that I should accept eternal torture as moral. I will not.
Fine. The existence of people is enough to disprove your beliefs as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.
It is a relevant hypothetical. If you're going to make the stupid claim that people 'choose' things that they don't intend then it has to be put to you specifically just to show you how pathetic your claim really is.
And I wouldn't bow down to the God of your gospel either.
Except he hasn't and your insistence that he has in favour of my own words is a direct example of how you literally deny reality in favour your beliefs. The ultimate in solipsism.
Except your understanding seems to be repeatedly wrong.
Yet they are not choosing to go to the lake of fire and so the stupid claim that they are is rendered incorrect.
This is not mere 'playing with words'. It is about you using the term belief to mean something that it is not. You misrepresent the nature of belief in order to suit your own bigotry. I am not choosing again to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. It is not possible to choose to go somewhere that you do not believe exists.
Yeah, that's all you can say when confronted with your complete hypocrisy. You gorge yourself on the fruits of modern civilization and then when you feel self-satisfied enough talk with glee about your own contempt and antipathy towards it. How selfish of you sir.
A solipsistic one at that.
Then I would do. So be it.
Calling you evil is not persecution. It is borderline accurate fact on your character at this point. i suspect though that you were hoping for such a direct claim so that you could boost your potential in the afterlife, self-serving and infantile as it is.
I don't think you even understood what I said.
That's an oxymoron.
But that would be an inaccurate observation of God, who could give everyone 10 million dollars if he so chose to (ignoring the economical consequences of that).Frumious said:I would liken it more to the person who placed the money next door, or who told you where the money was, they provided for you a path that didn't lead to torment; however by your own choices that's where you ended up.
Yeah I know. I have no problem with Universalism. I have less of a problem with Annihilationism but every problem with eternal torture.To be honest, if hell is your primary bone of contention, my thoughts are that it's a place that is yet to occur, and it's anyone's guess as to what exactly is the experience there. Even among those who profess faith in Christ there are a number of views and I would suspect that at least one would appeal to your instincts. Universalism through Christ, Universalism through cleansing in the Lake of Fire, Annihilationism, Eternal Torment from the presence of God's love, all the way to torture as described in Dante's Inferno.
Actually, it is in part my opposition to totalitarianism and fascism. It is my political opposition put into the supernatural realm.My view is that your desire to see that no one be punished/tortured/tormented for eternity can be attributed to what I would define as goodness. 2 Peter 3:9 says The Lord... ...is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But they may think there are saved by Darwin. Without Darwins theory of evolution the support for atheism is seriously diminished.
They just think we are sick and delusional, right?
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Science. Science is to be used, not to be served.
Yet in all that verbiage, you rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is still YOU CHOOSING to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Then represent it correctly!
We all share that desire to be free of shackles and live by our own interests and standards. Evil is the willful infringement of that
That's because many are called but only few are chosen.
I forgot to mention that whether you are a universalist or an annihilationist or an eternal tormentist, these all fall under the non-essentials. So hopefully we'll all meet together on that great day and have supper.
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