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I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.So there's something about being in "hell" which is actually preferable to being in heaven?
Yep, it would seem that Jesus is not the active ingredient in salvation but rather the ability of mere humans to espouse Correct Belief.Yes OP if you aren't the member of the right fan club you go to hell.
Your arguement is meaningless and circular because you present no evidence. You have to have a controled study. You take the people who believe in the God of the Bible and compare them to the people who do NOT believe in the God of the Bible. If in your study the people who DO NOT believe in the God of the Bible are more happy, healthy and content. Then by all means go for it.
I do not lump all believers together, I wasn't even talking about believers, I don't know where you read this in my post. Please stop creating strawmen.Of course it maybe difficult for you to make a determination as to who believes in the God of the Bible because you do not even know what to look for. You lump all people who claim to believe in God together, without even making a determination if it is really the God of the Bible they believe in.
Personal experience isn't evidence or proof. If your life is better with god than without, good for you. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs. But not their own facts.In my case I compare my life to before I read the Bible to after I read the Bible and started to apply it to my life. For me it is a no brainer. My life is way better now then it was back then. There is no way I would ever go back to a life without God. I can only give a witness and a testimony to what I have found to be true.
Yep, it would seem that Jesus is not the active ingredient in salvation but rather the ability of mere humans to espouse Correct Belief.
So those who choose Christ don't every experience death, sickness, curses and poverty?I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.
Then why is that what folks here are essentially saying, if they truly thought that wasn't what the bible is saying?Well that isn't what the bible actually says... so it is completely illogical to make such a criticism of biblical teaching.
ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.
Then why is that what folks here are essentially saying, if they truly thought that wasn't what the bible is saying?
I don't know if they are, or why they are... and such simply doesn't matter concerning the bibles teaching, which is what your statement referred to.
The bible lists the requirements for entering heaven, believing in God is one of them.
God cannot forgive someone who does not even acknowledge the need for forgiveness.
I would advise people to choose Heaven, but God gives you a choice. He says to choose life, health, blessing and properity. Some people choose death, sickness, curses and poverty. That is their choice.
ajtoce answered this question: "Jesus said that you must be reborn to enter, or even see, the kingdom of heaven. You must understand this: Jesus didn't come to make "bad" people be "good". He came to give life to spiritually dead people. (all of us are spiritually dead in Adam)". We can explain this better for you if you want to know more about it.So your saying that if a christain who is good but lets say does not want to go to heaven, god would not let them into heaven because as you said ' because there are people who do not want to be there' Please correct me if you so need to.
They are. Correct belief=salvation. See the following previously-made statements:
You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.Again, to hear the standard Christian take on it, salvation lies not in Christ, but on Correct Belief / Correct Choice.
If the salvific power of Christ's sacrifice is, like gravity, a reality that stands on it's own despite what we believe about it, then the effects thereof should be, like gravity, universally available to all regardless of what they personally believe about it.
I think your confusing atheism with secular humanism. I was raised as a humanist and I find the teaching of the Bible to be a lot better. I understand the confusion with people like Bush & McCain that claim to be a christian and yet they believe a lot different than I do. I am confused about it myself. How can they claim to be a Christian and then blow the arms and legs off of babys and children. All I can say is governments fight wars, not christians. If your fighting a war you are not representing christianity your representing the government that is paying you to do what your doing. We long for when Jesus returns and the 1000 year reign of Christ. They will beat their swords into plows and there will be no more war.
You can only label this wrong if you label the inability to recognise God as something that is wrong and then you get into the situation of thought-crime. The idea that you can be condemned for what you think.
Again, to hear the standard Christian take on it, salvation lies not in Christ, but on Correct Belief / Correct Choice. If the salvific power of Christ's sacrifice is, like gravity, a reality that stands on it's own despite what we believe about it, then the effects thereof should be, like gravity, universally available to all regardless of what they personally believe about it.
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Well that isn't what the bible actually says... so it is completely illogical to make such a criticism of biblical teaching.
chaela
The error here is that you have inferred that someone says Christ's salvation can be active despite what a person believes.
So on both counts, you unfairly and inaccuratly represent the beleifs you oppose.
But who says the entirety of Christianity is contained in the Bible?
Let's suppose? Ok... then "wow I was wrong" that would be my sudden realization. I don't really see the relevance here. You responded to comments of mine whos purpose where to show that Chaela did not accuratly represent the beleifs he opposed and his rebuttal of those beleifs were incorrect by the same fault.Ok, I'm going to go all Hicksian on you here; let's suppose all religions are different interpretations of the same truth, and that Christians reach heaven through their Faith in Christs sacrifice only to meet a load of Vikings who had prayed to Thor and some very confused Buddhists just for good measure. Perhaps the active unit in salvation is Faith, rather than Faith in any particular religion?
Briareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?chaela
The statements that you quoted are not identical to the criticism you made neither do they imply that meaning you ascribe to them. Not at all.
You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.
That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.The error here is that you have inferred that someone says Christ's salvation can be active despite what a person believes.
Not necessarily. Our very existence, life itself, is a gift, and our acceptance of it was not required prior to our receiving that gift. I see eternal life as the same type of gift. Not all gifts are of the sort exchanged on Christmas day, where one can return it in 30 days if they have the receipt.Christ's sacrifice does have force independent of your belief about it; but your enjoying that gift is necessarily dependent on your accepting it. A gift forced is not a gift. Gifts require acceptance.
So your dismisal of Vishnu is not an inablility to recognize him but a downright refusal to do so? Or isn't it more plausible that your inability to recognize vishnu is, mmmmmmmmmmm let me think, because he isn't real?!It is not an issue of an inability to recognize God, but a refusal to do so.
Usually that is rooted in a refusal to admit there is a higher authority than oneself, or than some other concept to which one is loyal.
Even if it's true that human beings are hard wired to hold a god concept (I don't believe this), it doesn't make that god concept true. Or would you say that because there are 800 million Hindus that means their god concept is true?There's a reason atheists are, and always have been, rare as a percentage of the human population: the existence of a higher power is in-built knowledge in us all. And yes, a refusal to seek out the identity and nature of that higher power--especially when such knowledge is readily available--is itself wrong.
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