Atheists Are Right About No Evidence

[Allandavid]

God does not and never will coerce anyone my friend. Jehovah God is a loving Father who has instituted free will in this world. To cross the line of free will and bend our will to his is to cross the line of perfect love which is something he absolutely cannot do.

There is a passive coercion at work, if your god is to be believed, because there are certain things you MUST do and believe in order to enter paradise and to escape hell...you aren't forced to do them, but the consequences for not doing so are dire.......that's coercion.

 

[Steven Calloway]

It's not coercion if it's absolute reality. C.S. Lewis said this.....
From these premises it follows directly that the Divine labour to redeem the world cannot be certain of succeeding as regards every individual soul. Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason. If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself (though many can help him to make it) and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully 'All will be saved.' But my reason retorts 'Without their will, or with it?' If I say 'Without their will' I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say 'With their will,' my reason replies 'How if they will not give in?'

 

[Allandavid]

It's not coercion if it's absolute reality. C.S. Lewis said this.....
From these premises it follows directly that the Divine labour to redeem the world cannot be certain of succeeding as regards every individual soul. Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason. If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself (though many can help him to make it) and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully 'All will be saved.' But my reason retorts 'Without their will, or with it?' If I say 'Without their will' I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say 'With their will,' my reason replies 'How if they will not give in?'

Its coercion. Its no different than the parent who says to their teenage son "I'm not saying that you have to clean your room...you have the right to refuse to do that. But I am saying that anyone who doesn't clean their room won't be receiving any allowance this week."

 

[quatona]

There is lots of proof, but atheists just fluff it off or try to science their way out of the proof. I find it mostly to be and pointless debate with them.

One of the reasons for this could be that your "proof" isn´t proof.

 

[Tanj]

There is lots of proof, but atheists just fluff it off or try to science their way out of the proof. I find it mostly to be and pointless debate with them.

Can I add this to my signature please. For context I would modify it like this:

There is lots of proof [of God], but atheists just fluff it off or try to science their way out of the proof.

 

[Introverted1293]

I would join in congratulating you for your honesty...in my experience, it is rare...

Keep this in mind though...the reasons you have given for your belief could equally be offered by a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Sikh. I imagine that they too have trust in their parents, would claim to see the 'spirit' of their god/s in others, would claim miracles in their name.

Can you see why many of us atheists simply lump all of you together under a label of 'unsupported claim'...?

I did not think of that.

 

[Dave-W]

But one thing I notice is that the atheists are right about not having proof of the existence of God. So do we keep arguing with them? We don't have proof.

So give them a demonstration like Paul did:

1 Cor 2.1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.​

When you argue you are just using the "wisdom of men" which Paul said was inadequate. Show them God's power.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

The Lord Jesus Christ does not allow for an elite few to love like Kings while the rest of this world suffers. No, no, my dear friend. You need to call your view of God into question here...... This God you would worship, does he ever force people to act a certain way? Does he force them to live how he wants them to live?

So, are you telling me the top 1% of the world controlling more than 50% of the wealth doesn't lead to a select few living like Kings? Do you have any idea how many people are starving in the world? How many people live in complete poverty without access to running water, plumbing, or don't know where their next meal is coming from? Your god just sits back and watches them all suffer.

I really don't care about my imagined "god" situation. I do know I won't ever worship your god. I don't worship a god, I don't really know how that would work. I'd rather a god force someone to be good, rather than watch them do bad things that harm the people around them. I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with the perfect answer to your question. However, gods don't exist, I'm not really concerned about it.

 

[Cuddles333]

The way the Godhead of the Bible is portrayed, many times really does paint the picture of a tyrant. This is due to the ancient people being without education. They only understood and respected brute force.
We today have many academic disciplines to apply to the scriptures and the Supernatural that I'm sure God is very displeased with many of his children who choose to remain in ancient ignorance themselves concerning a number of subjects.
Today, if we apply ourselves, we see that the beings charged with the implementation of creation, deliberately altered it from what was intended by the Godhead. To sum up what the scriptures so roundabout tell us, when creation was presented to the Godhead, the Father was going to destroy it, but the Son wanted to give us (and our creators) chances to become the intended members of the family.
There is no coercion.

 

[Ajflyguy7]

The way the Godhead of the Bible is portrayed, many times really does paint the picture of a tyrant. This is due to the ancient people being without education. They only understood and respected brute force.
We today have many academic disciplines to apply to the scriptures and the Supernatural that I'm sure God is very displeased with many of his children who choose to remain in ancient ignorance themselves concerning a number of subjects.
Today, if we apply ourselves, we see that the beings charged with the implementation of creation, deliberately altered it from what was intended by the Godhead. To sum up what the scriptures so roundabout tell us, when creation was presented to the Godhead, the Father was going to destroy it, but the Son wanted to give us (and our creators) chances to become the intended members of the family.
There is no coercion.

If there is no coercion, why doesn't God reveal himself to me and explain away the evil and stupidity of his book? If he did that, I would believe in him. Otherwise, there is no reason for me to believe in him. Unless, I actually believed in his hell and was scared of it.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Before I begin I just want to specify that I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I believe someday every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord to God's glory. I also not only believe Jesus Christ but I also believe he is God in the flesh as mention in John (you know the passage that says the word was with God and the word is God, and the word became flesh). I do not believe I am saved though. I have surrendered to Jesus but I still sin. And it seems impossible to stop sinning. But I have committed my life to Jesus. But I still don't believe I am saved. I don't know if my motivations are acceptable to God or not. And I know if I will consistently obey Christ. I tend not be consistent. My flesh sometimes takes over. But my desire is to follow Christ and to live for him.

But one thing I notice is that the atheists are right about not having proof of the existence of God. So do we keep arguing with them? We don't have proof.

Our logics are different. For example, it doesn't make sense to me to say the world began by itself, but to an atheist it may make sense.

So, why do we keep arguing with them, and why do believers keep saying there's proof?

Why do I believe? Because I believe my parents, and I believe in the Biblical history, and I saw healing occur in the name of Jesus, I saw my sister get filled with the Holy Spirit, I saw the fruit in my parents lives and I don't believe they will lie about their experiences.

But me saying that I witness these events does not prove anything to atheists. It will be like saying I saw Santa Clause going down the chimney. So why don't we believers admit you are right we don't have proof?

Isn't God's job to prove himself to the unbelieving world? Paul said that he did not use man's wisdom to preach the gospel, but he did it by the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. If God does not give us the power to heal the sick or raise the dead, or any other power like he did the apostles, then how would we prove the existence of God?

And if we did possess the power to heal the sick, wouldn't atheists believe in God?

If you performed miracles in front of a committed atheist, it would be of no use. Since they won't allow for the miraculous because of their world view and mindset, they would simply try to figure out "the trick". I'm afraid that a certain percentage of people....perhaps the largest percentage of people will be found in a state of disbelief when Christ returns. There is not point to the existence of hell if no one will be there. But, here's the thing. We continue to engage in dialog, and proposing the Christian thing out of love and duty to God. We love our fellow human beings. And all persons are indeed made in the image and likeness of God. We recognize even in our non-believing brothers and sisters that Jesus loves them too, and since we are uncertain of the methodology of the Holy Spirit in their conversion, we make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit as a conduit for the conversion whether we are effective or not. Our efficacy is a product of God's particular gifts to each Christian person who is witnessing. Though you may appear to lose every debate, you are still exposing the Atheist to the Gospel in you witness and planting mustard seeds. We may never know what all we may have been channels for here on Earth until all is revealed on the last day, but we continue to witness and debate with the faithless out of our love for them, and as exercise of our own faith.

 

[Strathos]

One of the reasons for this could be that your "proof" isn´t proof.

Absolute proof of most things is impossible.

 

[HitchSlap]

There is lots of proof, but atheists just fluff it off or try to science their way out of the proof. I find it mostly to be and pointless debate with them.

What, in particular, convinced you a god/s exist?

 

[Ajflyguy7]

If you performed miracles in front of a committed atheist, it would be of no use. Since they won't allow for the miraculous because of their world view and mindset, they would simply try to figure out "the trick". I'm afraid that a certain percentage of people....perhaps the largest percentage of people will be found in a state of disbelief when Christ returns. There is not point to the existence of hell if no one will be there. But, here's the thing. We continue to engage in dialog, and proposing the Christian thing out of love and duty to God. We love our fellow human beings. And all persons are indeed made in the image and likeness of God. We recognize even in our non-believing brothers and sisters that Jesus loves them too, and since we are uncertain of the methodology of the Holy Spirit in their conversion, we make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit as a conduit for the conversion whether we are effective or not. Our efficacy is a product of God's particular gifts to each Christian person who is witnessing. Though you may appear to lose every debate, you are still exposing the Atheist to the Gospel in you witness and planting mustard seeds. We may never know what all we may have been channels for here on Earth until all is revealed on the last day, but we continue to witness and debate with the faithless out of our love for them, and as exercise of our own faith.

Has anyone ever performed a documented miracle in front of others? Should we not be skeptical of people who perform "miracles?" Would you just accept someone performing a "miracle" and praise them as Jesus reincarnate? If people can perform these "miracles," then why did no one accept the James Randi $1,000,000 paranormal challenge? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Strathos]

why did no one accept the James Randi $1,000,000 paranormal challenge?

The same reason no one has passed Kent Hovind's $500,000.00 challenge to prove evolution.

(because the challenges and the way they are judged are inherently biased against accepting a winner)

 

[Halbhh]

Before I begin I just want to specify that I am a believer in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I believe someday every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord to God's glory. I also not only believe Jesus Christ but I also believe he is God in the flesh as mention in John (you know the passage that says the word was with God and the word is God, and the word became flesh). I do not believe I am saved though. I have surrendered to Jesus but I still sin. And it seems impossible to stop sinning. But I have committed my life to Jesus. But I still don't believe I am saved. I don't know if my motivations are acceptable to God or not. And I know if I will consistently obey Christ. I tend not be consistent. My flesh sometimes takes over. But my desire is to follow Christ and to live for him.

But one thing I notice is that the atheists are right about not having proof of the existence of God. So do we keep arguing with them? We don't have proof.

Our logics are different. For example, it doesn't make sense to me to say the world began by itself, but to an atheist it may make sense.

So, why do we keep arguing with them, and why do believers keep saying there's proof?

Why do I believe? Because I believe my parents, and I believe in the Biblical history, and I saw healing occur in the name of Jesus, I saw my sister get filled with the Holy Spirit, I saw the fruit in my parents lives and I don't believe they will lie about their experiences.

But me saying that I witness these events does not prove anything to atheists. It will be like saying I saw Santa Clause going down the chimney. So why don't we believers admit you are right we don't have proof?

Isn't God's job to prove himself to the unbelieving world? Paul said that he did not use man's wisdom to preach the gospel, but he did it by the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. If God does not give us the power to heal the sick or raise the dead, or any other power like he did the apostles, then how would we prove the existence of God?

And if we did possess the power to heal the sick, wouldn't atheists believe in God?

I like to tell some who seem somewhat like me -- needing some proof -- that they can test Christ's instructions.

They can actually take the risk to "love a neighbor" or even the more difficult "love your enemy" and discover the outcome of the test.

Evidence about whether His instructions are good, even when you didn't think so.

I know this can work, because I did it myself as agnostic (who thought God might exist, but didn't know).

About your own wondering about your own salvation -- Christ also gave powerful instructions to us for our profound aid in the work of following Him, putting His commands into practice.

For instance, He gave us a powerful way to pray for aid in Matthew chapter 6.

What would happen if you did just what He said to do in Matthew ch 6?

Test. Rely on Him. Have the faith to try, and see what happens.

 

[possibletarian]

Absolute proof of most things is impossible.

Just a little would be good.

Given that your god is all powerful though, wouldn't that be possible ?

 

[Ajflyguy7]

The same reason no one has passed Kent Hovind's $500,000.00 challenge to prove evolution.

(because the challenges and the way they are judged are inherently biased against accepting a winner)

I don't think the James Randi challenge is biased against a winner, it just prevents people from doing magic.

Everyone knows Kent Hovind is an idiotic, con-man looking for fame. The guy is a total joke. He calls his literal bible theme park a museum. Even though, we know nothing in it is factual. Kent basically wants someone to create a miniature big bang in a collider to prove evolution. Obviously, he doesn't really know what evolution is.

 

[HitchSlap]

The same reason no one has passed Kent Hovind's $500,000.00 challenge to prove evolution.

(because the challenges and the way they are judged are inherently biased against accepting a winner)

And the fact Hovind doesn't have 250k to hand over.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

One of the reasons for this could be that your "proof" isn´t proof.

Can I add this to my signature please. For context I would modify it like this:

There is lots of proof [of God], but atheists just fluff it off or try to science their way out of the proof.

My proof is proof, but non-christians try to figure out ways to say its not proof. Lets use miracles or better yet people who have died and seen either a glimpse of heaven or hell. Some of these people mind you are not christians. Science comes up with a long winded argument why it was just in their mind. And miracles that happen science tries to discredit or if they have no answer they just say "It was luck!". Such as we knew a teen who had cancer, she was diagnosed with end stage. That night pastors and others came and prayed over her. The next day she said she felt great. Doctors were a but confused but they gave her another scan and seen the tumor in her brain was totally gone. Not even a trace of it was left.

Science can't explain how that happened. Mind you this wasn't some random miracle story I read online. This was someone locally who I "sort of" knew from church. At this point non-believers are like "Do you have proof?". Well do you mean like medical records? Since it didn't happen to me, not I don't have proof. I can't just walk into a hospital and ask for somene elses medical records. The doctors that were taking care of her were not christian either, so they would have no reason to lie about it. I even briefly met the doctor a few weeks later when I was at the same clinic and was talking about it to another patient of his.

I can even use the example of myself. I have been clinically dead on the table and seen "the light". But in my case Jesus was there but I wasn't going towards the light, instead I was told the path I was on was dark and then I seen a glimpse of hell. After I woke up and the doctors were shocked since they thought I was dead. I'm not sure how long exactly I had been dead/out though. I've had other miracles happen in my life too. Such as money I needed to go marry my wife overseas and money of paperwork...etc. Mind you I am disabled and don't get alot of money. So I had to rely on somehow getting the money to go there. Which at that point was pretty much impossible.

And yet within a week I got enough to go. Mind you I when I was there I wasn't really keeping track of the money because I was bad and converting currency. And when I got home I had exactly 40 cents left. Mind you I had some things occur like a fractured ankle when there, extra fees...etc. Obviously a miracle that I got enough money and that I came home with essentially 40 cents even though I was not tracking my money.

Again these are things science will reject and use numbers and odds...etc. Science has no real reason to believe in any of this stuff so I don't think they will ever accept it as proof. Even the fact the bible only has a few prophecies left to fulfill they even ignore. Go look them up. Alot of the modern day ones have happened. Such as the forming of the Euro. Some say making random statements about the future is not hard to do and obviously you can twist it to look like it came true.

Nope, every prophecy has come true in the exact order they were mentioned. Event he modern day ones. The only ones that are left involve the end times. How does science explain all of it being so precise and perfect and in order and the fact like 95% have come true? Those aren't just good odds, those are beyond impossible odds. And when you look at supposed prophecy people like Nostra, almost none of his came true, the few that did were worded so plainly that you can twist them to fit any event. Wheres as bible prophecies are precise and yet to not come true.

But this is the part where people will try to disprove all this stuff becausae they are not interested in the truth. They don't even want God to be real. Because they hate God. Which is always ironic for me because why is there so much hate for someone you say isn't real to begin with? Why talk about God so much? Why be on a christian forum?

If my friend told me that he has a purple trex living in his basement that lays eggs filled with diamonds, I am certainly going to not believe him nor would I talk about it all the time or even indulge such a crazy thing. And yet non-believers seem to obsess about God so much that they spend their lives arguing against "An invisible sky fairy". But the truth is they don't believe Hes not real. If anything they very much believe Hes real. They fear the future of what happens when they die deep down. Its why they have to always talk about God not existing to reassure themselves its true so they feel better. But since the fear comes back, they never end talking about Him.

Best part of it is when they say "Psh, thats not true! You don't even know me!". Well "science" and "psychology" talk about this thing all the time. This is what you believe in right? So why do you suddelny say what I say about you is not true? Or is science only accurate when it isn't talking about you?