Atheistic Liberal News Media

[sdmsanjose]

Quote by Clirus
A lot Christians believe they can make other people "realize the love of God through Jesus Christ", but I do not believe that works most of the time. The Roman Road to Salvation begins with admitting that all have sinned and are worthy of death.

Clirus
I do not believe that I can MAKE other people "realize the love of God through Jesus Christ". I do think that humbly testifying how God’s tolerance, patience, and kindness, was applied to my own life can have an affect that may begin a person to believe that they can be forgiven and accepted.

Yes, admitting that we are sinners is a step in redemption but it is the changing of the heart that brings people to the belief that Jesus has opened the door to God’s grace and brings them into the faith.
Actually most people that I know realize that they are sinners. Those that don’t; seem to have to begin to come to admit their sinfulness by the Holy Spirit, their own experiences, or by loving kindness of a person that has genuine love for the sinner and discernment.

Telling people that they are sinners and they are going to have disease and death does not seem to have the affect on the softening of the heart towards believing that they can be accepted by God through faith.

I am not saying that telling people that they are sinners is never productive; I am just saying that I think that with wisdom, telling people that they are sinners is best to be delivered with loving kindness and not in a way that is judgmental.

Clirus, It is admirable that you want to do what you said, you said,
“I sure want to make a statement that the wages of sin is death, so that some person may be deterred from that first sin that traps them into a life of sin.”

I hope that you are successful. However, I do think that a change of heart and the faith in God’s kindness and grace will also keep them from a sin that traps them into a life of sin. Furthermore, if they are not deterred and fall into sin, then God’s patience, tolerance, and kindness will bring them to repentance and they will be set free.

I did not make up by myself the part of God’s patience, tolerance, and Kindness leading to repentance, it came from Romans 2. See below



Romans 2

God's Righteous Judgment

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

 

[clirus]

Clirus
I do not believe that I can MAKE other people "realize the love of God through Jesus Christ". I do think that humbly testifying how God’s tolerance, patience, and kindness, was applied to my own life can have an affect that may begin a person to believe that they can be forgiven and accepted.

Yes, admitting that we are sinners is a step in redemption but it is the changing of the heart that brings people to the belief that Jesus has opened the door to God’s grace and brings them into the faith.
Actually most people that I know realize that they are sinners. Those that don’t; seem to have to begin to come to admit their sinfulness by the Holy Spirit, their own experiences, or by loving kindness of a person that has genuine love for the sinner and discernment.

Telling people that they are sinners and they are going to have disease and death does not seem to have the affect on the softening of the heart towards believing that they can be accepted by God through faith.

I am not saying that telling people that they are sinners is never productive; I am just saying that I think that with wisdom, telling people that they are sinners is best to be delivered with loving kindness and not in a way that is judgmental.

Clirus, It is admirable that you want to do what you said, you said,
“I sure want to make a statement that the wages of sin is death, so that some person may be deterred from that first sin that traps them into a life of sin.”

I hope that you are successful. However, I do think that a change of heart and the faith in God’s kindness and grace will also keep them from a sin that traps them into a life of sin. Furthermore, if they are not deterred and fall into sin, then God’s patience, tolerance, and kindness will bring them to repentance and they will be set free.

I did not make up by myself the part of God’s patience, tolerance, and Kindness leading to repentance, it came from Romans 2. See below



Romans 2

God's Righteous Judgment

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

"Do Nothing" Attitudes of Christians

I believe God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit represent both Love and Righteousness.

I believe the Love and Righteousness of God leads to the three levels of action.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

I agree completely with your understanding of Love, but what is your understanding of Righteousness?

Some say the only thing necessary is Love, but I believe "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing". I believe evil is flourishing because good men (Christians) are doing nothing to rebuke/execute evil through Civil Law. The Civil Law that use to rebuke/execute evil is now being ruled unconstitutional by judges that are Atheists.

The following are some to the "do nothing" attitudes of Christians.

Leave it to God

This attitude is where the Christian is really concerned about being judgmental so they leave it to God to take action. No person can judge the heart of another person, but when the heart of a person is revealed by physical actions that violate the commandments/doctrines of the Bible, the physical actions must be judged, rebuked and in many cases executed. Sin/Evil is a cancer in society that must be eliminated before all of society is destroyed. I believe God provided the Bible so Christians would know good from evil, so that Christians could righteously judge the physical actions. II Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

John Edwards (democratic vice presidential candidate)

This attitude is where the Christian says, "I would not do that, but I would not mind someone else doing that". I am not sure whether advocating/condoning sin isn't worse than the actual act of sin. The act of sin will lead to disease, death destruction and poverty for those involved, but advocating/condoning sin will lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty for the nation.

Soft on Sin

This attitude is where the Christian says, "There are other more important social issues than being concerned about Sin/Evil". These are the socialists, pacifists, environmentalists, social justice people that consider their worldly issue as the real cause of human misery, yet the root cause of most human misery is sin/evil. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

This is a political subject because the democratic party is the party of the socialists, pacifists, environmentalists, social justice people that advocates abortion and homosexuality which is in violation of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Republicans have yet to prove to me that they totally support Christian principles, but democrats have proven they do "not" support Christian Principles.

I believe America and the world is in great danger of God's wrath due to Christians doing nothing. I do not understand how any Christian could vote for any democrat nor be associated with the democratic party.

 

[DuneSoldier]

Republicans have yet to prove to me that they totally support Christian principles, but democrats have proven they do "not" support Christian Principles.

.............

I believe America and the world is in great danger of God's wrath due to Christians doing nothing. I do not understand how any Christian could vote for any democrat nor be associated with the democratic party.

People vote for the Democrats for the same reason people vote for Republicans. We believe they have a better vision for the future than the other party. Or that we see there platforms by and large less disagreeable than the other parties.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I believe America and the world is in great danger of God's wrath due to Christians doing nothing.

Well then, the Christians who are doing something will suffer right along with the rest of us.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote by Clirus
I agree completely with your understanding of Love, but what is your understanding of Righteousness?

My understanding of righteousness is what the Bible says. The Bible says that righteousness comes from a changing of the heart (Romans 10:10).

Romans 10
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Clirus, pointing out your view that other Christian’s are “Do Nothing” Christians and are “Soft on Sin” does not seem to be the best way to change their heart. In fact, in Romans 2, God says that His kindness, tolerance, and patience lead to repentance.

Romans 2

God's Righteous Judgment


4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Also, you state that the Christians that “Do nothing” and are “soft on sin” are the Democrats. Clirus, I think it is a mistake to bring politics into the righteousness of God. All political parties are going to violate the teachings of the Bible sooner or later. All political parties do some things right and some things wrong. I will not become loyal to one political party because they will all betray you at times. They can also do some good at times. Unfortunately, in politics it is not an all or nothing situation. You have to choose the lest of the bad, or if you prefe, the ones that will do good more often. They all fail the Bible but at times do some good.

IMO the standard for righteousness is the Bible not any political party. As I have quoted the Bible above, righteousness comes from the changing of the heart and from God’s goodness. You seem to think that if we all pointed out how bad other people are that then we are bringing about righteousness in others. Clirus, how successful have you been in producing righteousness with your method of pointing out the bad in Christians and political parties?

IMO, if we are going to discuss righteousness then leave politics out of the discussion because all political parties will soil the truth of righteousness.

I agree with you 100% that we should not advocate or condone sin. So far I have not found in the Bible where labeling large groups of people as failures has been the best way to help change a person’s heart towards repentance. However, if you have Biblical scriptures that show otherwise I will be interested.

 

[clirus]

To sdmsanjose

I believe Satan is well aware of the concept of changing hearts, but the difference is that Satan changes many hearts through control of the Atheistic Liberal News and Entertainment Industry.

The concept of the Church changing hearts to Jesus worked well so long as there was an umbrella of a sympathetic local, state, and federal government. Satan used the concept of social justice programs to gain control of the local, state and federal governments that now oppose Christian Principles. Satan knows the weakness of men for pornography, so Satan got Atheists elected to government, who appointed Atheistic judges, to get pornography called freedom of speech.

The problem we have is that the Church says one thing and the children go to school and that are taught the exact opposite. The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and a judge says homosexuals are fine people that have civil rights. That is not working. Look around your church and count the number of illegitimate children, divorces, etc.. Without a sympathetic local, state, and federal government, it will get to the point there are more illegitimate births than baptisms.

I believe Christians have become too confident in the concept that God is in Control and God will take care of things. God took care of a sinful Israel by sending Israel into captivity. I believe Christians must be involved in politics.

Yes both democrats and Republicans make mistakes but I believe the Republican party is much more sympathetic to Christian Concepts than democrats. If the local, state, and federal government is going to sympathetic to Christians, it will only be that way if Republicans control the government. Christians need to control the Republican Party and the Republican Party needs to control the government. That is the same as saying that Christians need to control the government, but admitting there is no Christian Political Party at this time.

Revelation 3:16 states, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The problem we have is that the Church says one thing and the children go to school and that are taught the exact opposite. The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and a judge says homosexuals are fine people that have civil rights.

Are you denying that homosexual people have civil rights?

 

[DuneSoldier]

To sdmsanjose

I believe Satan is well aware of the concept of changing hearts, but the difference is that Satan changes many hearts through control of the Atheistic Liberal News and Entertainment Industry.

The concept of the Church changing hearts to Jesus worked well so long as there was an umbrella of a sympathetic local, state, and federal government. Satan used the concept of social justice programs to gain control of the local, state and federal governments that now oppose Christian Principles. Satan knows the weakness of men for pornography, so Satan got Atheists elected to government, who appointed Atheistic judges, to get pornography called freedom of speech.

The problem we have is that the Church says one thing and the children go to school and that are taught the exact opposite. The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and a judge says homosexuals are fine people that have civil rights. That is not working. Look around your church and count the number of illegitimate children, divorces, etc.. Without a sympathetic local, state, and federal government, it will get to the point there are more illegitimate births than baptisms.

I believe Christians have become too confident in the concept that God is in Control and God will take care of things. God took care of a sinful Israel by sending Israel into captivity. I believe Christians must be involved in politics.

Yes both democrats and Republicans make mistakes but I believe the Republican party is much more sympathetic to Christian Concepts than democrats. If the local, state, and federal government is going to sympathetic to Christians, it will only be that way if Republicans control the government. Christians need to control the Republican Party and the Republican Party needs to control the government. That is the same as saying that Christians need to control the government, but admitting there is no Christian Political Party at this time.

Revelation 3:16 states, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

The Republican party has proven to me it's NOT anymore sympathetic to Christian Concepts than the Democratic Party. It merely pays them lip service to get votes, but it acts contrary to them once in power.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Are you denying that homosexual people have civil rights?

She's denying that homosexuals have a right to exist, if she follows the Bible as closely as she says she does.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay http://www.christianforums.com/t7501059-7/#post55934721
Are you denying that homosexual people have civil rights?

Reply by Nathan
She's denying that homosexuals have a right to exist, if she follows the Bible as closely as she says she does.

Nathan
The Bible does not deny the right for homosexuals or sinners to exist. If the Bible did we would all be dead. Do you enjoy misrepresenting the Bible?

I am somewhat puzzled by people that almost always refer to the Bible as a book that has as it’s main theme judgment and damnation. When in fact the Bible is a book of HOPE, REDEMPTION, and ACCEPTANCE for ALL.

I am listing below two passages that give you an idea as to the main theme of the Bible. The Bible’s main theme is hope, redemption, and acceptance for ALL.


Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 10:10
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote by Clirus
The concept of the Church changing hearts to Jesus worked well so long as there was an umbrella of a sympathetic local, state, and federal government

Clirus, I also wished that there was more of an umbrella of a sympathetic local, state, and federal government towards the good news of Christ. However, the good news of Christ is able to change hearts with or without sympathetic government.

I am sure you are aware of the anti-Christian government of the great Roman Empire during the first several centuries of the modern era.
Where is the Roman Empire now?
Is Christianity still just 12 disciples preaching the good news to unchanged hearts?

The Roman Empire is no more and Christianity is the dominate faith of the whole western world!

I am not saying that Christians should not be involved, I am saying that the big jobs such as changing a nation takes the spirit of God and not politicians.

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


Clirus, in terms of changing hearts, IMO you give too much credit to governments and politicians and not enough to the spirit of God.

 

[laconicstudent]

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and a judge says homosexuals are fine people that have civil rights.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Nathan
The Bible does not deny the right for homosexuals or sinners to exist. If the Bible did we would all be dead. Do you enjoy misrepresenting the Bible?

I am somewhat puzzled by people that almost always refer to the Bible as a book that has as it’s main theme judgment and damnation. When in fact the Bible is a book of HOPE, REDEMPTION, and ACCEPTANCE for ALL.

I am listing below two passages that give you an idea as to the main theme of the Bible. The Bible’s main theme is hope, redemption, and acceptance for ALL.

The Bible specifically states that homosexuals should be put to death -- yes or no?

(And I'm sure you've noticed by now, but hope, redemption, and acceptance for all is not one of clirus' main themes)

 

[clirus]

The Republican party has proven to me it's NOT anymore sympathetic to Christian Concepts than the Democratic Party. It merely pays them lip service to get votes, but it acts contrary to them once in power.

You can say or think anything you want, but you cannot deny that homosexuality, which is called an abomination in the Bible, is promoted when democrats are in control of the government.

I believe all manner of sin/evil is increases during control of the government by democrats, but the one that is obvious is homosexuality. Democrats are now destroying the military by allowing openly homosexuals in the military.

The military is becoming a social justice organization under democrats instead of a fighting organization that is able to defend America under Republicans.

I do not see how any Christian could vote for any democrat.

 

[clirus]

She's denying that homosexuals have a right to exist, if she follows the Bible as closely as she says she does.

Why do you misrepresent my statements?

I have never stated that homosexuals do not have a right to exist, but homosexual activity should be rebuked because it leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, the same as heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

The Bible does not say to execute homosexuals, but the phrase "worthy of death" could be interpreted as being AIDS and God's judgement on homosexual activity.

I believe homosexuality needs to return to the closet.

The Church should rebuke sin/evil in obedience to God and the State should rebuke/execute evil/sin for health, safety and economic reasons.

 

[clirus]

Nathan
The Bible does not deny the right for homosexuals or sinners to exist. If the Bible did we would all be dead. Do you enjoy misrepresenting the Bible?

I am somewhat puzzled by people that almost always refer to the Bible as a book that has as it’s main theme judgment and damnation. When in fact the Bible is a book of HOPE, REDEMPTION, and ACCEPTANCE for ALL.

I am listing below two passages that give you an idea as to the main theme of the Bible. The Bible’s main theme is hope, redemption, and acceptance for ALL.


Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 10:10
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I believe the Bible is HOPE/REDEMPTION/ACCEPTANCE for ALL, who accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

I believe the Bible is judgment/damnation for those that do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior.

All this is summed up in one verse.

Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

[clirus]

sdmsanjose quote

I am not saying that Christians should not be involved, I am saying that the big jobs such as changing a nation takes the spirit of God and not politicians.

Clirus, in terms of changing hearts, IMO you give too much credit to governments and politicians and not enough to the spirit of God.

Response

I believe you give too little credit to governments and politicians that are led by the spirit of God (Holy Spirit).

I believe you have too little fear of governments and politicians that are led by Satan.

Proverbs 29:2 says, "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

I believe God gave Christians America so that it could be a place where Christians would not have to experience persecution. I am dismayed that Christians have allowed America to be perverted by Atheists. The Atheists were voted into office by Christians that were deceived into believing that Christians did not have to be involved.

Satan was very successful with deceiving Christians that Satan does not exist or does not need to be feared. Now most Christians are becoming fearful, but Christians are expecting they will not have to suffer because of pre tribulation rapture.

I believe governments and politicians can be cleaned up and America return to being a Christian Nation if Christians will be involved in politics.

This is my interpretation of the verse.

II Chronicles 7:14 states, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

In case you noticed I am quoting from the Old Testament, I believe the Old Testament is how the Physical should be controlled and the New Testament is how the Spiritual should be controlled, the combination of which means survival for both individuals and nations.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Democrats are now destroying the military by allowing openly homosexuals in the military.

How would that destroy the military?

I have never stated that homosexuals do not have a right to exist, but homosexual activity should be rebuked because it leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, the same as heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

The Bible does not say to execute homosexuals, but the phrase "worthy of death" could be interpreted as being AIDS and God's judgement on homosexual activity.

Your postulated 'AIDS is a punishment for homosexuality' nonsense has already been debunked.

I believe God gave Christians America so that it could be a place where Christians would not have to experience persecution. I am dismayed that Christians have allowed America to be perverted by Atheists. The Atheists were voted into office by Christians that were deceived into believing that Christians did not have to be involved.

God didn't give American to Christians.

I believe governments and politicians can be cleaned up and America return to being a Christian Nation if Christians will be involved in

Can't return it to something it never was.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why do you misrepresent my statements?

I have never stated that homosexuals do not have a right to exist, but homosexual activity should be rebuked because it leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, the same as heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

The Bible does not say to execute homosexuals, but the phrase "worthy of death" could be interpreted as being AIDS and God's judgement on homosexual activity.

I believe homosexuality needs to return to the closet.

The Church should rebuke sin/evil in obedience to God and the State should rebuke/execute evil/sin for health, safety and economic reasons.

You've said before that the Civil Law should be used to execute evil people -- the Bible says that homosexuals are evil people. You've never been shy about having people executed before.

Are you waffling, or do you honestly believe that evil is no longer evil so long as you can pretend it's not there?

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote by nathan
The Bible specifically states that homosexuals should be put to death -- yes or no?

Nathan
The Old Testament does.
The NEW Testament’s main theme is hope, redemption, and acceptance for all.

In the Old Testament God showed His grace once again and promised a NEW COVENANT (Jeremiah 31) that will not be like the Covenant He gave Moses when they came out of Egypt.
IMO that NEW CONVENANT is the NEW Testement.

Jeremiah 31 (New International Version)

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.






The NEW Testament’s main theme is hope, redemption, and acceptance for all.
(see John 3:16-18 below)


John 3 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned

(And I'm sure you've noticed by now, but hope, redemption, and acceptance for all is not one of clirus' main themes)

Yes I have noticed and that is why I have taken a different approach than Clirus.


Nathan
I can tell that you are an intelligent person. You can get a better understanding of Christianity from you reading the Bible than you can from me or Clirus. Sometimes we Christians let other agendas get in the way of the true message of the Bible.

Had it not been for God’s grace, this sinner would be condemned!