Atheist, not trolling

[BobRyan]

Christianity accepts both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were never forbidden from eating pork, bacon, shellfish, etc.

In Isaiah 66 anyone who eats mice or any detestible thing or who worships an idol is said to be destroyed by God at the end of the World.

(No restriction - Jew or Gentile).

In Genesis 6 - 8 long before any Jew exists - there is the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

Acts 10 long after the resurrection of Christ - Christians still observe the Bible command against eating rats, cats, mice and bats etc.

Under the Christian model "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" is an approved and blessed way to determine correct doctrine. Acts 17:11

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Catherineanne]

it seems that most people deny that the bible is infallible. This goes against my most basic assumptions about the religion. Basing christianity on the teachings of christ makes more sense but it seems to me that it would be much harder.

Who wants an easy faith?

Raise the dead - most scholars are in agreement that Jesus existed, but most of them are christian. many non christian scholars also agree that he exsited, but not everyone.

So how is it decided what the teachings of christ are?

The direct teachings of Christ for an apostolic Christian are held in the New Testament, but also echoed in the Old Testament. They are also found in the traditions of our church, which may complement, but will never contradict, what is taught in the Bible.

Newer denominations will reject the element of tradition, seeing it as contrary to Scripture, but this is a misunderstanding of the interconnectedness of the two strands of our faith. The early Church did not have a Bible, and it relied on the apostles teaching believers, and then those believers teaching other believers. Eventually the inheritors of our Church tradition collected letters and gospels together and determined what would be canonical in relation to our faith and what would not. So the New Testament itself is the product of Tradition.

 

[Catherineanne]

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

The short answer is because we are neither Jewish nor Moslem.

The longer answer is that Christ said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him (ie ritually unclean food, which he says just passes straight through and out again) but what comes out of his mouth (ie his words). Therefore, the emphasis changes from externals to internals; the inner man, and the heart. Putting it another way, someone can follow all the ritual dietary rules they like, but if they break their word, use profanities, lie, cheat and steal then they are not ritually pure. I am sure Orthodox Jews would agree with that one.

Paul underlines this in his teaching. He himself adhered to Jewish food laws, but had a vision from God to tell him that this was no longer necessary in relation to gentile converts to Christianity. Jewish people could retain food laws, but gentiles did not have to adopt them. What matters most is to follow Christ and his example.

 

[freezerman2000]

In Isaiah 66 anyone who eats mice or any detestible thing or who worships an idol is said to be destroyed by God at the end of the World.

(No restriction - Jew or Gentile).

In Genesis 6 - 8 long before any Jew exists - there is the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

Acts 10 long after the resurrection of Christ - Christians still observe the Bible command against eating rats, cats, mice and bats etc.

Under the Christian model "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" is an approved and blessed way to determine correct doctrine. Acts 17:11

in Christ,

Bob

Who would eat a mouse in the first place...mice carry so many diseases,why do you think they are called vermin?...I have yet met anyone,Christian or atheist who would chew on rats,mice and bats.It's just plain unhealthy to do so.
Other cultures eat cats,but not in the Western world as far as I know.
As I stated before, we are no longer bound by Levitical Law..Christ fulfilled those laws for us.
We are living in Grace,not the Law.

 

[freezerman2000]

The short answer is because we are neither Jewish nor Moslem.

The longer answer is that Christ said it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him (ie ritually unclean food, which he says just passes straight through and out again) but what comes out of his mouth (ie his words). Therefore, the emphasis changes from externals to internals; the inner man, and the heart. Putting it another way, someone can follow all the ritual dietary rules they like, but if they break their word, use profanities, lie, cheat and steal then they are not ritually pure. I am sure Orthodox Jews would agree with that one.

Paul underlines this in his teaching. He himself adhered to Jewish food laws, but had a vision from God to tell him that this was no longer necessary in relation to gentile converts to Christianity. Jewish people could retain food laws, but gentiles did not have to adopt them. What matters most is to follow Christ and his example.

Amen!

 

[et superbum]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

For those that feel that the bible is infallible: Why do you believe this? I have not read the bible, but Catherineanne has stated that the bible itself does not make this claim. How certain of this are you?

 

[et superbum]

3. In 1Thess 2 Paul said that the NT was already being accepted by people in his day as"the Word of God".

Nobody was waiting around for a few centuries until the Catholic church could form and tell them what to read.

4. The OT text was already used in the NT to test the Apostolic teaching to "study the scriptures daily and see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were so" Acts 17:11

in Christ,

Bob

Wikipedia actually cites the bible for the authorship dates of the books in the new testament.

I have heard multiple time from different sources that many of the gospels were not written for more than a century after the death of christ. I may be listening to biased sources for this information, but it can't be any worse than what wikipedia is currently doing.

I will look this up to try to find a less biased account.

 

[freezerman2000]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

For those that feel that the bible is infallible: Why do you believe this? I have not read the bible, but Catherineanne has stated that the bible itself does not make this claim. How certain of this are you?

My take on your first question is, while the tribes of Israel were wandering around the wilderness, they had no time to properly cook pork,time they did not have time to waste.It was more of a health issue for them, more than anything else.
I do not take the Bible as being infallible,mainly because it has been translated many times, portions completely thrown out and major differences between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles abound.I can't say anything about the Orthodox Bibles, I know to little about them.
When the early translations were being done, political tensions were running high,wars were being fought over the book and it's content,so the Bible became politicized.
Over the years, it has become so watered down from it's original form, it has become what MAN decided it would be, not what God intended.
I still read it,but it is not infallible.

 

[bobk]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

I'm not sure that it was God who said it isnt okay to eat pork. I'm skeptical about a lot of the Old Testament. I favor the "Documentary Hypothesis" which holds that the Torah was edited together from 4 different sources. Google the term if you havent heard of it.

Also, it says in Jeremiah 8:8: "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

I'm sure that there are a lots of different opinions on this subject.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

At a certain point in time God chose the children of Abraham to be his chosen people. In order to differentiate them from the other tribes around he gave them circumcision and he also gave them specific laws to follow. By following these laws, and by circumcising their sons, they would separate themselves from other tribes and be able to retain their own distinct monotheist identity in a pantheistic world.

One of the laws was to not consume blood, another was to not eat certain animals. There are lots of others, all of which are still carefully followed today by observant Orthodox Jews.

 

[Catherineanne]

Wikipedia actually cites the bible for the authorship dates of the books in the new testament.

I have heard multiple time from different sources that many of the gospels were not written for more than a century after the death of christ. I may be listening to biased sources for this information, but it can't be any worse than what wikipedia is currently doing.

Wikipedia is part of online entertainment. It is not a scholarly resource for anything.

I will look this up to try to find a less biased account.

Likely dates for Gospel composition:

Mark 60 - 75, most likely between 68 and 73.
Matthew 80 - 90, +/- 10 years
Luke/Acts 85, +/- 5 to 10 years
John 80 - 110

From An Introduction to the New Testament, by RE Brown.

From overlapping material in the first three of these Gospels (the synoptics) there is very compelling evidence for some common source material, very possibly in the form of written collections of the Lord's teachings. These collected teachings form the basis for the later construction of the gospel accounts, based on eye witness accounts, but not written at the time. However, the collections of sayings may well be contemporaneous with Paul, and with the other apostles.

However, the Lord lived in a largely preliterate society, which means that the people were used to remembering information and passing it on to one another. This is how the traditions of the early Church were disseminated before the Gospels were written, and indeed for some centuries afterwards.

 

[Catherineanne]

In Isaiah 66 anyone who eats mice or any detestible thing or who worships an idol is said to be destroyed by God at the end of the World.

(No restriction - Jew or Gentile).

In Genesis 6 - 8 long before any Jew exists - there is the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

Acts 10 long after the resurrection of Christ - Christians still observe the Bible command against eating rats, cats, mice and bats etc.

Under the Christian model "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" is an approved and blessed way to determine correct doctrine. Acts 17:11

in Christ,

Bob

Seventh Day Adventist beliefs such as these are not shared by mainstream Christian denominations. The reason we don't go around eating rats is nothing to do with the Bible, and everything to do with them being associated with dirt and disease. No doubt if we were hungry enough we would eat them, and I very much doubt if God would regard that as a sin.

 

[et superbum]

For those who do not feel that the bible is infallible, if you are willing, would you please tell me how you decide what in the bible is the true teachings of jesus. I understand that this is a personal process but I would like to understand as best I can. A variety of answers would be ideal.

 

[Johnnz]

For me the issue is one of reliability, or confidence. Inspiration is Divine oversight of the authors and the preservation of the manuscripts we now have. Through the Scriptures I can discern God's story of His dealings with humanity, I can know Jesus, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit the Life of Christ is a reality.

I adopt an historical/grammatical approach to the Scriptures, discerning as best I can with the help of competent people best able to teach me about them. I want to know as best I can what each author intended by what he wrote, what his original audience understood the text to mean, and the historical and cultural factors behind both author author and audience.

John
NZ

 

[[serious]]

For those who do not feel that the bible is infallible, if you are willing, would you please tell me how you decide what in the bible is the true teachings of jesus. I understand that this is a personal process but I would like to understand as best I can. A variety of answers would be ideal.

Same way I approach the works of Kant or Jung. The bible is, in my view, a collection both of mythologies stemming from an oral tradition and several formulations of ethical thought. These were collected only after the fact and not fully canonized until after the council of nicaea. Neither the New Testament authors nor the council that collected the works claimed to be acting under the infallible guidance of God (a few exceptions for prophesy not withstanding) and I see no reason to impart that assumption on my own. The new testament is, by and large, commentary. Often useful, but not what the religion is founded upon.

 

[Johnnz]

The one thing Scriptures aren't is a collection of ethical thoughts. They tell of God's story as He created humanity and interacted with us throughout history, well documented by various authors using different genres to suit their purposes.

John
NZ

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Me, I'm most interested in how it informs your behavior. What do you do, (or not do), that you would not have done, (or done), had you not become a Christian?

Lots. When I say "seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit," I don't really expect that'll carry much meaning to you though.

Which forms of self-declared Christianity do you acknowledge as Christian?

Mormons? NOPE
Episcopalians (or mainline churches in general)? SURE
Catholics? YUP
Jehovah's Witnesses (not sure even I would be willing to go that far)? NO
Pentecostals? YUP
Muslims (hey, they revere Jesus only second to Muhammad)? NOPE

And what about the splinter groups?

Young earthers? SURE
Geocentrists? (No joke, there's a fairly vocal group claiming Galileo got off easy, and should never have been forgiven.) Never encountered any such thing
Rapture readies? YES
Open theists? Don't know what that is either
UFOs are angels?

Not the UFO, but the supposed aliens are fallen angels? (To get the story straight) Has no bearing.

The gospels give a quite specific, and very different, answer. Jesus was executed by Pilate as an insurrectionist. Honest or dishonest, it was all the same.

Negatore, Sir. He was honest, innocent, and without sin. You missed that part obviously, but not because of the text.

Certainly, there are supernatural beliefs that are held in common by a statistical majority of Christians, such as the deity of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. But most of the religious beliefs are too diverse to admit any majority when they show up as public issues involving Christian faith, such as gay marriage, the teaching of the theory of evolution, or access to abortion services.

IOW, there is 100% unity on what the Faith teaches, and on matters that are irrelevant to the Faith, we are left on our own. How is this surprising?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

The main aspects of the law, were to make the Jews distinct from the peoples around them. There are also certain health elements within the dietary law, that would have far more merit during the time they occurred than they would now.

For those that feel that the bible is infallible: Why do you believe this? I have not read the bible, but Catherineanne has stated that the bible itself does not make this claim. How certain of this are you?

100% certain. The bible never speaks to this. What it does say, is the word of the Lord will never fail. How much of the bible is "thus sayeth the Lord?" Not very much. And much of that is extremely difficult to fathom, kinda like if today's newspaper headlines were read 1,000 years from now. Seahawks beat Lions?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

For those who do not feel that the bible is infallible, if you are willing, would you please tell me how you decide what in the bible is the true teachings of jesus. I understand that this is a personal process but I would like to understand as best I can. A variety of answers would be ideal.

It's quite simple:

if you think you find a passage saying a certain thing, reserve judgment on that. Find that same sentiment (your present interpretation) being expressed in at least one other location, preferably 2. It is my experience that if you can, you will ALWAYS find that third reference, although sometimes that one may be veiled.

If you cannot, we must be willing to let that idea go, no matter how fond of it we may be. "By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established." This is a precept God gives to us, that He seems content to abide by Himself.

 

[aiki]

I have read mark 7:10 - 20 and it seems pretty clear that jesus says its ok to eat pigs. Now I wonder why it was ever not ok to eat them in the first place. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

THe prohibition against eating pork was, as most of the laws of this sort given to the Israelites were, about Israel being separate from the cultural norms of the surrounding pagan societies. Israel was to be a nation set apart unto God and to make this clear they were required to observe many laws and ceremonies that promoted separateness from the common practices of other nations of the time and that constantly reminded the Israelites of their calling to separateness. There was nothing intrinsically wrong or sinful about eating pork, or wearing mixed fibers, or getting a tattoo. God's command to the Israelites to abstain from such things was about emphasizing their call to separateness.

For those that feel that the bible is infallible: Why do you believe this?

I believe in its original form the Bible was inerrant. THere have been copyist errors over the years which produced small and insignificant corruptions to the biblical text. Fortunately, as a result of the enormous number of available ancient manuscript resources of the Bible, these errors have been largely discovered and corrected. None of the errors, though, have any impact whatsoever upon the major tenets of the Christian faith.

If I believe the Bible is the Word of God, then it stands to reason that His Word would reflect His perfection. I do believe the Bible is the Word of God, therefore, His Word is perfect as He is. Also, Scripture does claim God as its Author.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

See also:
Jeremiah 25:3
Jeremiah 34:12
Jeremiah 36:2
Jeremiah 36:28
Ezekiel 1:3
Ezekiel 3:16
Ezekiel 22:1
Hosea 1:2
Haggai 1:1
Haggai 2:1
Haggai 2:10
Zechariah 1:1
Zechariah 4:6
Zechariah 7:4
Zechariah 7:12
Zechariah 8:1
Malachi 1:1
Matthew 22:31
Acts 1:16
Acts 28:25
2 Timothy 3:16
Hebrews 5:6
2 Peter 1:21
2 Peter 3:15
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 1:19
Revelation 14:13
Revelation 21:5

Why do I believe the Bible is the Word of God?

1. Historical/archaeological/cultural accuracy.
2. Incredible thematic unity despite being written over 1500 years by 40 different people on 3 different continents in 3 different languages.
3. Survivability and popularity.
4. Fulfilled prophecy.
5. Profound impact upon societies and cultures.
6. Correspondence with reality.
7. Personal experience which bears out the claims of Scripture.

Selah.