kenblaster5000
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They sure did feel the wind in the upper room in the book of Acts.
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I think we can all agree that you can feel wind...
People who claim to examine but never need to fix are either intellectually dishonest or not very smart. Either you have convinced yourself that you are always right or you aren't smart enough to ever discover your own mistakes.
People who never examine are intellectually stunted.
I think Augustine and Origen and Thomas Aquinas, I think, would bristle at your assertion.
I find it interesting that so many Christians are obsessed with telling de-converts that they never were Christians -- that their entire lives leading up to their deconversion was a lie.
Perhaps it's a sign of insecurity.
I find it interesting that so many Christians are obsessed with telling de-converts that they never were Christians -- that their entire lives leading up to their deconversion was a lie.
Perhaps it's a sign of insecurity.
It's more a theological position.
Many Christians feel that
(1) Grace cannot be resisted and
(2) your salvation + change of nature is assured for all eternity,
then -> if you de-Convert you were never a Christian in the first place.
OTOH, there are those who feel the need to tell me I was never a Christian. Why? I know I am not one now. So what I was then really has little bearing on anything. So why tell this "misguided soul?" To feel better about oneself? To re-convert me?
I question the sincerity of the "re-convert" position. To call my previous life a lie isn't going to warm the cockles of my heart. To say I mislabeled myself implies self delusion. That ain't gonna help either. It suggests that I didn't know what it meant to be a Christian. It suggests that I didn't mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart. It suggests, ironically, that grace doesn't work--that Christ would take my ill-spoken but sincere words and make them good. But rather if the formula isn't right, God will blow you off. (This is no god worthy of worship.)
If I am lost--if there is a god to be lost from--then convince me. Teach me the truth. Extol the logic or mysticism or whatever it is that gets you thru the night. But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.
If I wasn't a Christian, no one is. If I was deceived, so might you be. If I lost my salvation, then look to yours.
If Christianity were only a crutch, then I'd feel better about it. Since it's been taken oh so many steps further and has permeated every aspect of life, I feel it truly is unhealthy. You look at other religions as harmful because they aren't the one true religion, but fail to see the startling similarities and potential for abuse in all of them, including your own...even when it's been so painfully demonstrated in the past.However, I disagree substantively with your implied view that religion, especially Christianity, is an unhealthy crutch for those insecurities. Christianity is the only cure to those insecurities, but Christianity is tough pill to swallow!
Why do you need a crutch? I don't. The world is what the world is, I don't need to cling to something in order to deal with it. To me, that's the definition of a secure person. If you need a crutch - even a healthy one - then you're insecure.If the world is the source of our insecurities, it would be nonsensical to turn back to the world to look for the crutch.
What healthy crutches does the world offer? Does it even attempt to offer a cure?
We can feel it, measure it, explain it, predict it, generate it, and see the effects it has on other objects. Do you seriously want to get into this argument? You'll lose.How can you be sure that wind exists. You cannot see it?
^^ This.But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.
If I wasn't a Christian, no one is. If I was deceived, so might you be. If I lost my salvation, then look to yours.
I appreciate your restatement, Dragons87. I accept that you mean what you say when you were referring only to yourself. I hope you can understand that your previous post and others' don't read that way on a first reading.
As you can tell, this tendency of some to mind-read strangers across the internet really irks me. It is intellectually dishonest. It is mean-spirited. And, it is arrogant. (I am not implying that you are any of these things.)
So, please forgive me for going off.
If Christianity were only a crutch, then I'd feel better about it. Since it's been taken oh so many steps further and has permeated every aspect of life, I feel it truly is unhealthy. You look at other religions as harmful because they aren't the one true religion, but fail to see the startling similarities and potential for abuse in all of them, including your own...even when it's been so painfully demonstrated in the past.
As far as being a tough pill to swallow, I couldn't agree more. As a child it was easy for me to accept the mystical concepts of religion, but then I also believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. It was when I put aside my childish thinking that I finally realized I was being deceived. So when I dropped Santa, et al, I also dropped invisible deities.
Why do you need a crutch? I don't. The world is what the world is, I don't need to cling to something in order to deal with it. To me, that's the definition of a secure person. If you need a crutch - even a healthy one - then you're insecure.
I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be productive. Suffice it to say that hasn't been my experience.Well, Christianity has a visible deity.
What is this wool and who pulls it? You're saying that it's unhealthy not to need some kind of crutch? That's odd. Maybe I should take up knitting.I do hold the view that people who think they are secure simply have wool pulled over their eyes, but I hold the view respectfully, and I must add that I used to be one of those people too.
Yes, I am quite aware of that. I am also aware of the armenian tradition that says one can lose one's salvation.
To some extent, we take the position we are raised with. If we weren't raised with it, we take the position of those who had a hand in our conversion.
OTOH, there are those who feel the need to tell me I was never a Christian. Why? I know I am not one now. So what I was then really has little bearing on anything. So why tell this "misguided soul?" To feel better about oneself? To re-convert me?
I question the sincerity of the "re-convert" position. To call my previous life a lie isn't going to warm the cockles of my heart. To say I mislabeled myself implies self delusion. That ain't gonna help either. It suggests that I didn't know what it meant to be a Christian. It suggests that I didn't mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart. It suggests, ironically, that grace doesn't work--that Christ would take my ill-spoken but sincere words and make them good. But rather if the formula isn't right, God will blow you off. (This is no god worthy of worship.)
If I am lost--if there is a god to be lost from--then convince me. Teach me the truth. Extol the logic or mysticism or whatever it is that gets you thru the night. But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.
I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be productive. Suffice it to say that hasn't been my experience.
What is this wool and who pulls it? You're saying that it's unhealthy not to need some kind of crutch? That's odd. Maybe I should take up knitting.
You're speaking metaphorically though. If your God is visible only through the actions and attitudes of His followers, then He's still invisible. That's completely intangible! Christians don't have a corner on the compassion market, you know. Decent human beings, regardless of faith, can show what you would call "Christ-like" qualities. Does that mean Jesus is "shining through them?" No, of course not.It's not just Jesus I meant. I also meant Christians, from whom Jesus shines.
You're speaking metaphorically though. If your God is visible only through the actions and attitudes of His followers, then He's still invisible. That's completely intangible! Christians don't have a corner on the compassion market, you know. Decent human beings, regardless of faith, can show what you would call "Christ-like" qualities. Does that mean Jesus is "shining through them?" No, of course not.
When I see a Christian, I don't see Jesus. I see the human being who is good or bad in and of themselves and their actions.
I didn't really feel the need to respond to the rest of it. If you hold that once a person has tasted the fruit of the spirit they're forever changed, then that's fine. I don't want or need to argue that. If your problem was pride and finding Jesus relieved you of that, that's cool. I don't see that I have a pride problem, I've just accepted life and death as-is and feel secure in that.Although...is this your only response to my entire post?
I didn't really feel the need to respond to the rest of it. If you hold that once a person has tasted the fruit of the spirit they're forever changed, then that's fine. I don't want or need to argue that. If your problem was pride and finding Jesus relieved you of that, that's cool. I don't see that I have a pride problem, I've just accepted life and death as-is and feel secure in that.
Cool.
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