Atheist girlfriend

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, it is in the Scriptures. I didn't realize that was being questioned.

If it was just a "Church rule" enforced to that degree, I'd be quite opposed to the restriction ...

Thank you Anastasia, and I do understand it is a problem, I guess I'm just looking for the biblical evidence on why it's defined absolutely a problem in Orthodox view, where others here don't seem to have good solid grasp of it is or if it isn't, and judging by some of the posts here, I assumed there was a good reason to believe it that we may not be aware of.

If it's just a matter of that's the way it is according to the Church, that's fine, and I'll accept you believe as you do for that reason, end of story, but if there is something more that might help others here, it would be helpful to me anyway. I'm always looking to resolve some of my "unknowns" when it comes to scripture.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Thank you Anastasia, and I do understand it is a problem, I guess I'm just looking for the biblical evidence on why it's defined absolutely a problem in Orthodox view, where others here don't seem to have good solid grasp of it is or if it isn't, and judging by some of the posts here, I assumed there was a good reason to believe it that we may not be aware of.

If it's just a matter of that's the way it is according to the Church, that's fine, and I'll accept you believe as you do for that reason, end of story, but if there is something more that might help others here, it would be helpful to me anyway. I'm always looking to resolve some of my "unknowns" when it comes to scripture.

Well, Protestants define marriage as merely a secular contract (to quote Martin Luther: "Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business."). So of course you're going to be puzzled by our approach to it, which we see as very Scriptural. You see, we consider marriage as sacred and done before God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Christ Himself tells us not to be unevenly yoked.

Exactly the way I put it in my first post here, so I agree, he did say that.

Yes, it is in the Scriptures. I didn't realize that was being questioned.

Thanks, I'll continue to seek out where the scriptures say it is sin, or an unforgivable sin in that it would be a perpetual sin if the marriage lasted a lifetime.

If it was just a "Church rule" enforced to that degree, I'd be quite opposed to the restriction ...

Good, I too like to think for myself where man is involved and take scripture as truth, without question.

Well, Protestants define marriage as merely a secular contract (to quote Martin Luther: "Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business."). So of course you're going to be puzzled by our approach to it, which we see as very Scriptural. You see, we consider marriage as sacred and done before God.

I define it more as you do, always have. I don't feel it's secular at all, and I couldn't give you stats right off hand, but many protestants feel the same...at least that's what I gather. I feel the holy/biblical marriage under God is what started it all, and the law/rule stuck, and stayed with the laws of the land for everyone over the years, no matter how one might define it. I'd guess God had his hand in that.

So you all know why I'm at odds on a conclusion on this. A for instance would be Christ stating outright that if we look at a woman and lust, it is adultery/fornication, both of which are already defined as sin so there are no doubts there what Christ is saying. But there is a difference between that and Christ saying not to be unequally yolked, as that is not listed as sin or at least not one of the big ten anywhere. If Christ says something is not a good idea, then it's not, no doubt, but he might also say not to eat that candy bar if you are overweight, but it will hardly end in Hell if we do. And that example is not to minimize it, it's just a simple way of making my point.

I'll keep checking here, and also google it to see if I can find solid scripture that defines it as sin. Also, none of this is my trying to do anything but convince myself with info from those who are convinced already.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Exactly the way I put it in my first post here, so I agree, he did say that.



Thanks, I'll continue to seek out where the scriptures say it is sin, or an unforgivable sin in that it would be a perpetual sin if the marriage lasted a lifetime.



Good, I too to think for myself where man is involved and take scripture as truth, without question.



I define it more as you do, always have. I don't feel it's secular at all, and I couldn't give you stats right off hand, but many protestants feel the same...at least that's what I gather. I feel the holy/biblical marriage under God is what started it all, and the law/rule stuck, and stayed with the laws of the land for everyone over the years, no matter how one might define it. I'd guess God had his hand in that.

So you all know why I'm at odds on a conclusion on this. A for instance would be Christ stating outright that if we look at a woman and lust, it is adultery/fornication, both of which are already defined as sin so there are no doubts there what Christ is saying. But there is a difference between that and Christ saying not to be unequally yolked, as that is not listed as sin or at least not one of the big ten anywhere. If Christ says something is not a good idea, then it's not, no doubt, but he might also say not to eat that candy bar if you are overweight, but it will hardly end in Hell if we do. And that example is not to minimize it, it's just a simple way of making my point.

I'll keep checking here, and also google it to see if I can find solid scripture that defines it as sin. Also, none of this is my trying to do anything but convince myself with info from those who are convinced already.

Thanks for all the input.

Christ tells you what to do, then you will do it, if you love him. He says if you love him, you'll do what he says. Christ says, "Don't do this," and here you are saying, "Well, but that's just like it's naughty, not like really bad."

 

[Kenny'sID]

Christ tells you what to do, then you will do it, if you love him. He says if you love him, you'll do what he says. Christ says, "Don't do this," and here you are saying, "Well, but that's just like it's naughty, not like really bad."

But I'm not really saying that. It was just to say that's my line of reasoning, but I'm not certain it's a viable line. That's why I mentioned the candy bar, as that scenario shows how the line of thinking *could* be viable.

Does anyone do as he says 100% of the time? Maybe it's a matter of how serious a sin it is...IDK?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

But I'm not really saying that. It was just to say that's my line of reasoning, but I'm not certain it's a viable line. That's why I mentioned the candy bar, as that scenario shows how the line of thinking *could* be viable.

Does anyone do as he says 100% of the time? Maybe it's a matter of how serious a sin it is...IDK?

Marriage is an ongoing lifelong commitment, so I'd say it's extremely serious.

 

[All4Christ]

Exactly the way I put it in my first post here, so I agree, he did say that.



Thanks, I'll continue to seek out where the scriptures say it is sin, or an unforgivable sin in that it would be a perpetual sin if the marriage lasted a lifetime.



Good, I too like to think for myself where man is involved and take scripture as truth, without question.



I define it more as you do, always have. I don't feel it's secular at all, and I couldn't give you stats right off hand, but many protestants feel the same...at least that's what I gather. I feel the holy/biblical marriage under God is what started it all, and the law/rule stuck, and stayed with the laws of the land for everyone over the years, no matter how one might define it. I'd guess God had his hand in that.

So you all know why I'm at odds on a conclusion on this. A for instance would be Christ stating outright that if we look at a woman and lust, it is adultery/fornication, both of which are already defined as sin so there are no doubts there what Christ is saying. But there is a difference between that and Christ saying not to be unequally yolked, as that is not listed as sin or at least not one of the big ten anywhere. If Christ says something is not a good idea, then it's not, no doubt, but he might also say not to eat that candy bar if you are overweight, but it will hardly end in Hell if we do. And that example is not to minimize it, it's just a simple way of making my point.

I'll keep checking here, and also google it to see if I can find solid scripture that defines it as sin. Also, none of this is my trying to do anything but convince myself with info from those who are convinced already.

Thanks for all the input.

What are requirements for you to see it as a sin?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does anyone do as he says 100% of the time? Maybe it's a matter of how serious a sin it is...IDK?

we would say yes, it is possible to come to a point where you freely follow Him 100% of the time. Christ does command us to be perfect as the Father is perfect.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't think we see it certainly in terms of being an unforgivable sin.

I think you are looking at in terms differently than we would as Orthodox. There are several reasons I can think of for that. Which is why I suggested to the OP when I saw him post elsewhere on CF that he should also ask in TAW. (This is not an underhanded criticism of you replying here, it's just to help you see that we can be quite different in our mindset - it certainly was difficult for me to begin to shift my understanding. )

And I'm not so sure I can explain the differences very well.

For one, we don't concern ourselves so much with whether this or that is a sin, or how BAD a sin, and so on, especially not with an eye perhaps to punishment?

Rather, sin is what moves us away from our goal, which is to be like Christ. Not just in the moment we commit it, but the effects having committed it can continue to have.

THIS is why marriage to an atheist is a HUGE big deal. We can be forgiven for the sin - we come to confession as for any other sin. But ... what happens when the atheist mocks our faith? When we become upset either at our spouse or at God or even both as a result? What happens when our children, God forbid, reject Him outright? And so on? Is this more likely to bring us closer to God, or move us further away?

Marriage is also such a large part of our lives that there is much more we consider with it. It is essentially a vocation. Each person, ideally, devotes themselves to the spiritual good and salvation of the other in all they do for and with one another. The sacrifices we give in marriage can do much to benefit us spiritually. And just as we believe that parents will still know and love their children in the life of the age to come, the bonds of love in marriage are expected to remain. We do not take vows followed with "till death do you part" in an Orthodox wedding. (But I should point out that we don't expect the fleshly part of the relationship to continue, and that an Orthodox person is free to remarry if a spouse dies, though a great many choose not to.)

I hope that sheds a little more light.

Marriage outside the Church is a serious sin, and I suppose we would say that because Christ said not to do it makes it a sin, and the great potential consequences make it serious. Not to mention that there are not many things the Church actually enforces on us really, but this is one, and it is wrong to outright defy the Church in one of those very few things she gives us. And because marriage is a Sacrament to us, and Sacraments are given to us by the Church, we judge that she has the right to say how she will give them. (I think this has resulted in abuses in Catholicism, but I know of no problem in Orthodoxy really, and if it crept in, the laity would even take care of it There is a funny story I heard ... ) But it is certainly forgivable, I would say. But that forgiveness does not remove the lifelong consequences of our choice, so it is still very, very, VERY inadvisable.

 

[All4Christ]

To the OP, you will be in my prayers! I know it is extremely difficult, but it is one of the most important decisions you make in this life!

 

[Catholic500]

Dear Christian6000 i think you must christianization your atheist girlfriend!Anastasia i think Catholics are more religious from Orthodoxs!I am an Catholic christian!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Dear Christian6000 i think you must christianization your atheist girlfriend!Anastasia i think Catholics are more religious from Orthodoxs!I am an Catholic christian!

Hello Catholic 500, and welcome to CF and to TAW.

We have a number of forum areas here, with different purposes. This one is the Eastern Orthodox congregational area, and the OP posted here in order to get answers from other Orthodox Christians, since he is EO. Kind of like how you might go to your church, for instance, to see what other Catholics might say about something.

If you need help finding your way around the forums, or with any of the rules or anything, please feel free to ask, and we will be glad to help.

 

[All4Christ]

Dear Christian6000 i think you must christianization your atheist girlfriend!Anastasia i think Catholics are more religious from Orthodoxs!I am an Catholic christian!

Welcome to TAW!

Personally, I believe Catholics can be very devoted, but Orthodox definitely can be very devoted to God as well. I'm sure there are some Catholics who aren't as devoted as some Orthodox and some Orthodox who aren't as devoted as some Catholics.

In all churches, Orthodox and Catholic included, there are some who don't follow the teachings of the church ( it sounds like your Orthodox girlfriend doesn't follow the teachings of the Church based on your other thread), but that doesn't change what is right and what is considered to be sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

i think Catholics are more religious from Orthodoxs!

I am sure there are those out there that all I can say are far more pious and prayerful than I am.

 

[Catholic500]

Αρχίζω μια θέση στο καθολικό φόρουμ των Christianforums.com για myorthodox φίλη που θέλουν να έχουν sex.Is ότι η αληθινή φόρουμ των christianforums.com περίπου καθολικοί;

 

[Anhelyna]

Catholic500

very few of us here speak Greek - the language used generally on the Board is English and we are patient with people who do not find it easy posting in English

 

[Catholic500]

Anhelyna i ask if the forum who date my problem "sex girlfriend" who see you is the forum.from cstholics...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I tried reading his post, dang it, and it was all Greek to me!

Catholic500

very few of us here speak Greek - the language used generally on the Board is English and we are patient with people who do not find it easy posting in English

 

[Kenny'sID]

Marriage is an ongoing lifelong commitment, so I'd say it's extremely serious.

Agree.

What are requirements for you to see it as a sin?

I tried to explain that in my last post or two, at least why I thought it may not be so serious as on a damnable sin. That was the best I can tell you right now. on second thought, if it were a commandment like I went into earlier, that would convince me.

we would say yes, it is possible to come to a point where you freely follow Him 100% of the time. Christ does command us to be perfect as the Father is perfect

I understand perfect as "mature" or mature in Christ. I suppose it can be done, but I'd question even a Monk that told me they were, however, if it was done, it seems it would take a Monks type of life to pull it off. And %100 is a pretty big expectation.

I don't think we see it certainly in terms of being an unforgivable sin.

Maybe that's all I'm after here, or at least in large part.

I think you are looking at in terms differently than we would as Orthodox. There are several reasons I can think of for that. Which is why I suggested to the OP when I saw him post elsewhere on CF that he should also ask in TAW. (This is not an underhanded criticism of you replying here, it's just to help you see that we can be quite different in our mindset - it certainly was difficult for me to begin to shift my understanding. )

And I'm not so sure I can explain the differences very well.

For one, we don't concern ourselves so much with whether this or that is a sin, or how BAD a sin, and so on, especially not with an eye perhaps to punishment?

Rather, sin is what moves us away from our goal, which is to be like Christ. Not just in the moment we commit it, but the effects having committed it can continue to have.

THIS is why marriage to an atheist is a HUGE big deal. We can be forgiven for the sin - we come to confession as for any other sin. But ... what happens when the atheist mocks our faith? When we become upset either at our spouse or at God or even both as a result? What happens when our children, God forbid, reject Him outright? And so on? Is this more likely to bring us closer to God, or move us further away?

Marriage is also such a large part of our lives that there is much more we consider with it. It is essentially a vocation. Each person, ideally, devotes themselves to the spiritual good and salvation of the other in all they do for and with one another. The sacrifices we give in marriage can do much to benefit us spiritually. And just as we believe that parents will still know and love their children in the life of the age to come, the bonds of love in marriage are expected to remain. We do not take vows followed with "till death do you part" in an Orthodox wedding. (But I should point out that we don't expect the fleshly part of the relationship to continue, and that an Orthodox person is free to remarry if a spouse dies, though a great many choose not to.)

I hope that sheds a little more light.

Marriage outside the Church is a serious sin, and I suppose we would say that because Christ said not to do it makes it a sin, and the great potential consequences make it serious. Not to mention that there are not many things the Church actually enforces on us really, but this is one, and it is wrong to outright defy the Church in one of those very few things she gives us. And because marriage is a Sacrament to us, and Sacraments are given to us by the Church, we judge that she has the right to say how she will give them. (I think this has resulted in abuses in Catholicism, but I know of no problem in Orthodoxy really, and if it crept in, the laity would even take care of it There is a funny story I heard ... ) But it is certainly forgivable, I would say. But that forgiveness does not remove the lifelong consequences of our choice, so it is still very, very, VERY inadvisable.

I agree it's a very big deal, and whether they could get along would depend a lot on both partners attitude. Also, it is something I and many around here highly recommend not be done, but as love can go sometimes, it can't be stopped, so, I guess I'm not looking so much to justify it but to work with those that insist on it, in that there is still hope for them in the area of eternity. Your post was very helpful, and thanks all of you for taking the time.

My experience is that the right one doesn't come around often, but I'd still recommend the OP think very hard on this decision, and if he's expecting to change her to Christianity at some point, just know that might very well not happen...just saying, don't count on it. This is probably something that should never have been considered to begin with, but what's done is done.

I used to like a Wicca I met on a board, but it wasn't all that tough a choice to draw the line against it and not even get involved in the first place, but what a position to be in had I done that, so I feel for the OP. She even showed up in my area from across the country and I wouldn't let her come by when she called...felt bad, but....

I haven't seen the new thread, I'll try to find it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It can be extremely difficult.

I was already married when I became Orthodox, but my husband is opposed to the Church. And he is a Christian (though hasn't attended any church much in some years). We have had difficulties even with this. I wouldn't recommend anyone choose to marry someone very different from themselves in faith.