Atheist girlfriend

[All4Christ]

Anhelyna i ask if the forum who date my problem "sex girlfriend" who see you is the forum.from cstholics...

Are you trying to say something like this?

You started a thread on Christian Forums about your Orthodox girlfriend who wants to have sex.

Are you asking if that is the Catholic forum? I think you posted in the Anglican and Old Catholic forum, not the Catholic one. The Catholic one is One Bread One Body.

http://www.christianforums.com/posts/70486120/

 

[ArmyMatt]

I suppose it can be done, but I'd question even a Monk that told me they were, however, if it was done, it seems it would take a Monks type of life to pull it off. And %100 is a pretty big expectation.

well, they never would admit it. the closer one comes to Christ, and the more like Him we become, the more we realize how unworthy we are. those that truly are perfect in Christ, see themselves as the greatest of sinners (like St Paul).

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I tried to explain that in my last post or two, at least why I thought it may not be so serious as on a damnable sin. That was the best I can tell you right now. on second thought, if it were a commandment like I went into earlier, that would convince me.

Let me make it simple for you: if, after you are a Christian, you choose to marry a non-Christian, you never actually married them. So you're living in fornication.

 

[Kenny'sID]

you choose to marry a non-Christian, you never actually married them.

Not so simple as you thought I guess.

How do you draw that conclusion?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Not so simple as you thought I guess.

How do you draw that conclusion?

Because, again, we define marriage as something sacred and before God, not as Protestants do, something purely material and secular with no religious significance. If marriage is a joining of two people in a holy unity through God's blessing, it means both people have to accept Christ; if one person does not, they thereby reject the bond of holy matrimony, since they deny it is holy right off the bat.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Because, again, we define marriage as something sacred and before God, not as Protestants do, something purely material and secular with no religious significance. If marriage is a joining of two people in a holy unity through God's blessing, it means both people have to accept Christ; if one person does not, they thereby reject the bond of holy matrimony, since they deny it is holy right off the bat.

Thank you, I now see how you drew your conclusion.

And again, As far as I can tell, many Protestants do see it as sacred, but I understand you are confident that is not a fact.

 

[All4Christ]

Thank you, I now see how you drew your conclusion.

And again, As far as I can tell, many Protestants do see it as sacred, but I understand you are confident that is not a fact.

Certainly many Protestants see it as sacred. In many ways, the service used in most Protestant services essentially is a contract. In my past church (Pentecostal), it was a contract between the husband, wife, and God. Both husband and wife made vows to uphold the marriage and to serve God through the marriage. We actually don't have any vows in our wedding ceremony. It was a bit of a foreign concept when I saw my first Orthodox wedding!

I think this is the underlying point Constantine is trying to convey: the Protestant wedding ceremony typically is centered around a contract, which although God is a critical part of it, is still a civil contract (makes them married in the eyes of the law). In the Orthodox Church, the couple presents themselves to God within the Church. The power of God comes upon the lives of a man and a woman and He unites them in one mind. He weds them in one flesh. The sacrament is a union, not a contract.

Now I know it is simplified to say that Protestant weddings are just a contract, as I know it also is the uniting of two lives. However, it is different in emphasis and also different in the fact that many Protestant churches will marry a Christian to a non-Christian. In the Orthodox Church, that can't be done, as it is a sacrament for both people. Again, I know not all Protestants churches are the same

This is a small quote from the article below:

Words and ceremonies matter, particularly when their nature and the context changes. The language and concept of contract served the West for many centuries. I believe that it created an overly legal understanding of a relationship that would have been better described in organic terms. Today, contract has triumphed over organic objections and the language (and ceremony) seem to be coming up short.

The language of the understanding of marriage within the Eastern model might suggest possible ways for other Christians to think as well. It certainly behooves Orthodox Christians to ponder deeply the substance of the Tradition that is theirs. It would make good sense if Orthodox Christians were to rid themselves of the confusion of contractual imagery that might have been inadvertently absorbed.

Crown them, O Lord, with glory and honor!

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2013/07/26/no-wedding-vows/

 

[~Anastasia~]

This brings me back to when I was learning about Orthodoxy.

The language and concepts can be confusing to someone from the outside. For a while, I was unsure if the Church regarded me as a married person, since I was married before becoming Orthodox.

But of course they DO recognize me as a married person, so even though it wasn't administered by the Orthodox Church, the union exists.

And though my understanding of a "sacrament" was incomplete because I was never really exposed to it, I still had a sense of the sacred and viewed marriage as "Holy Matrimony" as I know many Protestants do. Consideration of that belief was one of the most important aspects in planning my wedding. We received Communion together as part of our marriage ceremony, at the suggestion of our (Foursquare) pastor.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would also throw out there that Constantine is not talking about two Christians coming together, with one converting to Orthodoxy (which has happened often throughout the centuries going back to St Paul in Corinthians), but someone who is already Orthodox with someone who is a total nonbeliever.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Thank you, I now see how you drew your conclusion.

And again, As far as I can tell, many Protestants do see it as sacred, but I understand you are confident that is not a fact.

Except for Anglicans, Protestants dogmatically deny that marriage is a Sacrament, I believe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Except for Anglicans, Protestants dogmatically deny that marriage is a Sacrament, I believe.

That might be an argument from silence?

Are you meaning that most Protestants list only baptism and communion, and some refer to them as ordinances instead of sacraments?

It's difficult to say Protestants as a WHOLE believe anything except the very core of faith, or not even all of that, given that there is much variation. (Since some don't even teach the Virgin birth, etc.)

But mostly Protestants simply don't speak of sacraments. It's not as though they define the term, deny that marriage falls under it, then dogmatize that position?

Forgive me please if I misunderstand you, Constantine, but that seems to be what your words would imply?

 

[All4Christ]

Except for Anglicans, Protestants dogmatically deny that marriage is a Sacrament, I believe.

Many others consider it to be a sacred institution ordained by God, call it an ordinance or just don't name it something but consider it to be a blessing and act of the church together with God. When I was a Pentecostal, we called certain things like the Eucharist and baptism "ordinances" instead of sacraments. We considered marriage to be a covenant between husband, wife and God, that cannot be broken.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

That might be an argument from silence?

Are you meaning that most Protestants list only baptism and communion, and some refer to them as ordinances instead of sacraments?

It's difficult to say Protestants as a WHOLE believe anything except the very core of faith, or not even all of that, given that there is much variation. (Since some don't even teach the Virgin birth, etc.)

But mostly Protestants simply don't speak of sacraments. It's not as though they define the term, deny that marriage falls under it, then dogmatize that position?

Forgive me please if I misunderstand you, Constantine, but that seems to be what your words would imply?

During the Reformation, the idea that marriage is a Sacrament was explicitly attacked. Protestants actively ceased to recognize it as such, in contradiction to Catholics, who did.

If you're talking about Protestant denominations that sprang up after the Reformation, of course, some of them, it is true, do not even see baptism or communion as Sacraments, they see them as purely materialist rituals used for commemoration, but that nothing spiritual is taking place, and neither is important for being a Christian.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Many others consider it to be a sacred institution ordained by God, call it an ordinance or just don't name it something but consider it to be a blessing and act of the church together with God. When I was a Pentecostal, we called certain things like the Eucharist and baptism "ordinances" instead of sacraments. Others yet consider it to be a covenant between husband, wife and God, that cannot be broken.

No, Lutherans explicitly deny that it's a Sacrament, following Martin Luther.

An ordinance means a tradition or legislation, though not necessarily sacred. That's why it was the term used in place of Sacrament by some of the English Dissenters (who created many of the post-Reformation denominations, like Baptist and Quaker).

 

[All4Christ]

No, Lutherans explicitly deny that it's a Sacrament, following Martin Luther.

Yes, an "ordinance" means a tradition, though not necessarily sacred.

I changed my reply (a minute or so before you replied here), as you can see in the quote. I misread your post at first and thought you were saying they didn't believe in sacraments (and I had a memory flaw for a minute as well). I think my edited post is more accurate.

I believe an ordinance may be considered sacred but is not a means of conveying the Grace of God through that act.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I changed my reply (a minute or so before you replied here), as you can see in the quote. I misread your post at first and thought you were saying they didn't believe in sacraments. I think my edited post is more accurate.

I believe an ordinance may be considered sacred but is not a means of conveying the Grace of God through that act.

Then what makes it Sacred?

 

[All4Christ]

Then what makes it Sacred?

It is regarded with reverence and is dedicated to God. As I mentioned earlier, it also is often seen as a covenant with God. It is a voluntary act to dedicate the marriage to God and the husband and wife make a promise to make God the center of their marriage.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

It is regarded with reverence and is dedicated to God. As I mentioned earlier, it also is often seen as a covenant with God. It is a voluntary act to dedicate the marriage to God and the husband and wife make a promise to make God the center of their marriage.

Yet God's grace is not seen as effecting this?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Except for Anglicans, Protestants dogmatically deny that marriage is a Sacrament, I believe.

I don't get your way of thinking there, I know I don't, as I've said, and didn't you already agree other protestants don't? I really don't or wouldn't care what a church I might attend thought, I am not my churches mind necessarily, and probably why I dumped denomination a long time ago. So I assume maybe you mean that is the official protestant churches stance? If so, I understand and also hope you understand others share my view so it may not be as much the actual Protestant peoples stance either. May not.

Honestly, I wouldn't need a contact wedding, not what we normally know as one anyway. A common law would be fine. Or if there were ever a time when I was in a position it was a pain to get either, a simple, "I now pronounce us man and wife under the rules of the almighty" would be just fine with me....maybe even preferred.

 

[All4Christ]

Yet God's grace is not seen as effecting this?

Not the act itself, but the covenant made in the ceremony by the man and woman with God conveys grace. Also, in my old church, the congregation made a commitment with God to support them in the marriage. Honestly, I think some of the difference is in language as well.