Atheism

[dlamberth]

Do you think you are describing not knowing?

No.

Here's what I know. The basic nature of the human beings, our true self if you will, is to love and be loved. Caring is a seed of love, at least that's where I see it's root. So the less a person cares the less they are in touch with love, and their true self.

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[light upon light]

What is the problem with being self-centred in the world to come? Those who are self-centred in this world do not necessarily think it is a bad thing.

A heart full of love is its own reward.

Failing to learn love is its own punishment.

There need be no other.

 

[oi_antz]

No.

Here's what I know. The basic nature of the human beings, our true self if you will, is to love and be loved. Caring is a seed of love, at least that's where I see it's root. So the less a person cares the less they are in touch with love, and their true self.

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That makes sense, but it doesn't explain the error. At some stage, the person who does not care must have been told the concept of the golden rule. When they were presented with this concept, they decided that the other person was less equal to them, so they did not care. Is there something not true about this?

Failing to learn love is its own punishment.

What makes you believe this?

 

[light upon light]

What makes you believe this?

1 Corinthians 13, just for starters.

Many other reasons...

 

[dlamberth]

That makes sense, but it doesn't explain the error. At some stage, the person who does not care must have been told the concept of the golden rule. When they were presented with this concept, they decided that the other person was less equal to them, so they did not care. Is there something not true about this?

I don't know what they were thinking at the time. What I see as true though is that caring for others is a thing of the Heart. And a funny thing we humans do, we tend to bury or hide our heart. It's pretty scary thing to open ones heart. The thing is, the Golden Rule is one of those things that takes an open Heart to take it in. And the more open ones heart, the deeper it will go. The less open ones heart, the less it will be taken in with impact. So being told the concept of the Golden Rule with a heart not prepared, pretty much guarantees it will not be heard very deeply if at all.

What makes you believe this?

Of all of the creatures in this Creation, the Human Being was made to respond to Love the most. It's what makes us happy with life, ourselves, others AND more human as Human Beings. So naturally, failure to learn love is it's own punishment because with out love we don't have any of that stuff. Than we suffer as a result.

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[oi_antz]

1 Corinthians 13, just for starters.

Many other reasons...

That shows how love is a good thing. It doesn't show how failing to learn love is a bad thing. Can you describe why you believe that failing to learn love will become a punishment in the next life? (I am not arguing against it btw, I just want to know if there is any demonstrable truth to it for future reference).

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know what they were thinking at the time. What I see as true though is that caring for others is a thing of the Heart. And a funny thing we humans do, we tend to bury or hide our heart. It's pretty scary thing to open ones heart. The thing is, the Golden Rule is one of those things that takes an open Heart to take it in. And the more open ones heart, the deeper it will go. The less open ones heart, the less it will be taken in with impact. So being told the concept of the Golden Rule with a heart not prepared, pretty much guarantees it will not be heard very deeply if at all.

Thanks for explaining this, it is something that I will have to think about carefully. I don't necessarily accept that humans are naturally resistant to the golden rule because they wish to shelter their heart. I might be wrong though, which is why I will consider it and see if I can observe it.

Of all of the creatures in this Creation, the Human Being was made to respond to Love the most.

I don't agree with this, it doesn't seem to correspond to my observations.

It's what makes us happy with life, ourselves, others AND more human as Human Beings. So naturally, failure to learn love is it's own punishment because with out love we don't have any of that stuff. Than we suffer as a result.

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Ok I understand that being deprived of these things is a sort of punishment. But some people choose to not foster love, yet they don't perceive it as a punishment. In fact, some people even perceive it as a means of achievement. It is obviously misplaced achievement, but the fact remains that some people choose not to love. My question is why would they need to be saved from it?

 

[dlamberth]

I don't agree with this, it doesn't seem to correspond to my observations.

Looking around, I know, it is pretty hard to believe. But look at yourself. Look at what makes you happy and content. Look at things like Love when you see it, both in yourself and others. Watch for the smiles.

Ok I understand that being deprived of these things is a sort of punishment. But some people choose to not foster love, yet they don't perceive it as a punishment. In fact, some people even perceive it as a means of achievement. It is obviously misplaced achievement, but the fact remains that some people choose not to love. My question is why would they need to be saved from it?

I understand it as waking up to their true selves...which is Love. I'm not at all clear what we are being saved from other than being lost from what we truly are. I'd say that there is an Adam within each of us.

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[oi_antz]

Looking around, I know, it is pretty hard to believe. But look at yourself. Look at what makes you happy and content. Look at things like Love when you see it, both in yourself and others. Watch for the smiles.

I am not saying that humans aren't meant to respond to love, I am saying that other creatures seem equally dependent on love as humans. I just don't think love is a tangible point of difference between humans and all other species.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I am not saying that humans aren't meant to respond to love, I am saying that other creatures seem equally dependent on love as humans. I just don't think love is a tangible point of difference between humans and all other species.

I would disagree, humans are more dependant on love (to show you care) because of our ability to create some thing truly hideous in its place, history shows us this, animals don't have that capacity, which is the capacity to think in the way we do.

 

[oi_antz]

I would disagree, humans are more dependant on love (to show you care) because of our ability to create some thing truly hideous in its place, history shows us this, animals don't have that capacity, which is the capacity to think in the way we do.

How can you be so sure about that?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

How can you be so sure about that?

An animals brain does not produce high end beta wave frequency, if at all, which gives humans the capacity to think, act and do. An animals acting and doing is derived from instinctual and intuitive drives which limit its capacity to create.

 

[oi_antz]

An animals brain does not produce high end beta wave frequency, if at all, which gives humans the capacity to think, act and do. An animals acting and doing is derived from instinctual and intuitive drives which limit its capacity to create.

That is quite an interesting observation, but I don't think creativity is really associated to love. I think desire and enjoyment has more to do with it. Do you think humans have any significant advantage in that regard?

 

[dlamberth]

I am not saying that humans aren't meant to respond to love, I am saying that other creatures seem equally dependent on love as humans.

YES!!! I so totally agree!!! All of the animals as well as Human Beings know Love. I'd even say that plants in their own way respond to Love as well. Some say that seeing Love in the other animals is one way to see the sacredness of the Earth. Love is everywhere.

So, as you say, other animals are equally dependent upon Love. On that we agree. But I'd argue that Human Beings take it to a whole different level. We write poems and sing about it. We'll dream about love and watch love in movies and our entertainment. And people are even known to go Love Crazy. No other animal is so consumed with Love as we Humans Beings are. Love is so in our Human essence that I'd say it's the only thing that makes us a more human, Human Being.

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[elephunky]

I think to understand it you really need to look at the brains of humans and then the brains of animals.

 

[oi_antz]

YES!!! I so totally agree!!! All of the animals as well as Human Beings know Love. I'd even say that plants in their own way respond to Love as well. Some say that seeing Love in the other animals is one way to see the sacredness of the Earth. Love is everywhere.

So, as you say, other animals are equally dependent upon Love. On that we agree. But I'd argue that Human Beings take it to a whole different level. We write poems and sing about it. We'll dream about love and watch love in movies and our entertainment. And people are even known to go Love Crazy. No other animal is so consumed with Love as we Humans Beings are. Love is so in our Human essence that I'd say it's the only thing that makes us a more human, Human Being.

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Humans write poems and stories about all sorts of stuff. Fear is just as entertaining as love, even more so for some people. I think dogs could quite easily challenge humans for the amount that love consumes their lives.

I think to understand it you really need to look at the brains of humans and then the brains of animals.

I suppose that could help.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

That is quite an interesting observation, but I don't think creativity is really associated to love. I think desire and enjoyment has more to do with it. Do you think humans have any significant advantage in that regard?

No I was talking about a capacity to create. Desire is a capacity to create, desire with thinking is a greater capacity to create. Rather than ask more questions reflect on the answers.

 

[dlamberth]

That is quite an interesting observation, but I don't think creativity is really associated to love.

It would seem that you and I don't agree on very much. Creativity, to me, is ALL about Love!! I don't see how creativity could happen with out love. Look at the artist for instance. Their love for their art is what causes them to create.

When I put on my hat as a Lover of God, as I look around at the varieties of life and the creativity with in life, I'm pretty certain that God put a lot of Love into this Creation to make it happen. And with out that Love to make it happen, I don't think we would be here.

I think desire and enjoyment has more to do with it

I agree. (Back to the artist) But that because the artist loves what they are creating. It seems to me that the desire and enjoyment are born from the love the artist has for creating art.

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[oi_antz]

Desire is a capacity to create

This is interesting, I will consider that.

Rather than ask more questions reflect on the answers.

I will reflect on answers that make sense and seem to be true. I will ask questions about things that don't make sense or don't seem to be true, until I am satisfied that there is no point trying to understand it. Why do you think that is a problem?

It would seem that you and I don't agree on very much. Creativity, to me, is ALL about Love!! I don't see how creativity could happen with out love. Look at the artist for instance. Their love for their art is what causes them to create.

When I put on my hat as a Lover of God, as I look around at the varieties of life and the creativity with in life, I'm pretty certain that God put a lot of Love into this Creation to make it happen. And with out that Love to make it happen, I don't think we would be here.

I agree. (Back to the artist) But that because the artist loves what they are creating. It seems to me that the desire and enjoyment are born from the love the artist has for creating art.

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Ok, then I said the wrong thing. I meant to say that love doesn't depend on creativity. You are saying that creativity depends on love. I can see your point wrt human creativity, but I don't think love is necessarily quantified by the creature's ability to create. Therefore, a being's creativity is not a reliable measurement of their capacity for love (with respect to Eye's Wide Open's comment here, which I am yet to agree with. Dogs love their owner, not because the dog has the ability to go for a walk, but because the owner has the ability to take them for a walk. Therefore the dog loves because of the capacity for going for the walk, but not because it is able to create it).

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I will reflect on answers that make sense and seem to be true. I will ask questions about things that don't make sense or don't seem to be true, until I am satisfied that there is no point trying to understand it. Why do you think that is a problem?.

Ok from post 333 what was true, what didn't make sense, and what didn't you understand, following on from post 331 talking about love in relation to 'showing you cared', which was in relation to your post about animals and humans needing love equally and that there was no tangible difference. Were you referencing sexual relations in that post when referring to love and the tangible differences?