• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Gxg (G²);65885473 said:
As already said - regardless of how often it is avoided -
For Collins already noted that DNA is “God’s language.” (from "The Language of God" and The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief ) - Moreover, he notes that he sees plenty of "pointers to God," natural phenomena that imply the existence of a biblical God. Here are Collins's "pointers":


There is something instead of nothing.

The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, which make simple and beautiful laws.

The Big Bang: out of nothingness, the universe came into being. That cries out for explanation, since we have not observed nature to create itself . . . it causes us to postulate a creator, and the creator must be outside of time or you haven't solved the problem.

The precise tuning of the physical constants in the universe. If gravity was a little weaker, things would all start flying a part. You can see a creator in these constants.
When you are dealing with pointers, you were dealing with where the evidence logically leans toward and that is a part of the ways science is used to show the existence of a creator. Either address it or not.

Moreover, show where science does not already show pointers to the existence of a Creator if speaking against it.

Collin's stating that DNA is; God's language, is his personal belief, which he acknowledges is not something that science can confirm. One can say DNA is the language of aliens, it is the language of Zeus or anything else and that would be a personal position they have on faith.

In essence, Collin's himself admits science can neither prove or disprove God, so your claim that Collin's said science can "objectively" show the existence of a creator, is false, it is his personal opinion, not one of scientific evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟187,250.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Collin's stating that DNA is; God's language, is his personal belief, which he acknowledges is not something that science can confirm. One can say DNA is the language of aliens, it is the language of Zeus or anything else and that would be a personal position they have on faith.
Collins never said that DNA being God's Language was his own personal belief at any point - what he does note is that there's no escaping the fact that DNA has a designer...and the evidence of a Creator. Whether others feel it's Zeus or aliens is irrelevant since his main point was and always will be that the DNA itself has a creator. Collins already noted that DNA is “God’s language.” (from "The Language of God" and The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief ) - Moreover, he notes that he sees plenty of "pointers to God," natural phenomena that imply the existence of a biblical God. In The Language of God, Collins argues strongly for scientific evidence of intelligent design (though he doesn’t call it that) in cosmology and human psychology. He adduces the fine-tuning of the universe’s physical constants at the Big Bang, and human moral instincts, as features of physical existence that defy purely material explanations. “I cannot see how nature could have created itself,” he writes. And “ DNA sequence alone…will never explain certain special human attributes, such as the knowledge of the Moral Law and the universal search for God.”

However, turning to biology and the evolution of life in its countless forms, he dismisses intelligent design as an “argument from personal incredulity.” He writes that a religious believer may coherently believe in life as having been “specified” by God, and in genetic language as a kind of communication from God, even though, as per Darwinian theory, the evolutionary process was entirely unguided. Collins reconciles the seeming contradiction of a “specified” yet unguided history of life by observing that God stands outside time and so is unlimited by the human temporal perspective.

And on the issue of science proving God doesn't exist (whenever others say that claiming God exists based on evidence is speculation) - as Collins said directly:

I think strong atheism, of the kind that says, “I know there is no God,” suffers from two major logical flaws. And the awareness of those flaws might be reassuring to believers who are somehow afraid that these guys may actually have a point.

The first of those is the idea that anyone could use science at all as a conversation-stopper, as an argument-ender in terms of the question of God. If God has any meaning at all, God is at least in part outside of nature (unless you’re a pantheist). Science is limited in that its tools are only appropriate for the exploration of nature. Science can therefore certainly never discount the possibility of something outside of nature. To do so is a category error, basically using the wrong tools to ask the question.

Secondly, I think the logical error that atheists of the strong variety commit is what English writer G.K. Chesterton calls the most daring dogma of the universal negative. I often use a visual analogy to explain this. Suppose you were asked to draw a circle that contains all the information, all the knowledge that exists or ever will exist, inside or outside the universe – all knowledge. Well, that would be a pretty enormous circle. Now, suppose on that same scale, you were asked to draw what you know at the present time. Even the most assertive person will draw a rather tiny circle. Now, suppose that the knowledge that demonstrates that God exists is outside your little circle today. That seems pretty plausible, doesn’t it, considering the relative scale? How then – given that argument – would it be reasonable for any person to say, “I know there is no God”? That is clearly going outside of the evidence.


Moreover, as it concerns science not proving God, Collin's focus was specifically on showing the full character of God and Who He was. As stated directly on BioLogos in Are science and Christianity at war? | BioLogos (for brief excerpt) :

One way to erase the conflicts between science and Christianity is to view them as entirely separate endeavors, with different purposes, methods, and bodies of knowledge. This view emphasizes that science is a system of knowledge about the world and its behavior, whereas religion is about morality, God, and the afterlife. Thus, Christianity and science cannot conflict, because they are addressing different sorts of questions.3

This model has some weaknesses (see below), but it does help us understand some important aspects of the relationship. Many apparent conflicts between science and religion occur because of a lack of understanding of the fundamental differences between the two. When someone claims that the Bible answers a scientific question, and another claims that science answers a question about God, the conflict immediately flares up. Many conflicts become enflamed because participants forget that Christianity and science do generally address very different questions.

This model also reminds us that science is not the only source of knowledge. There are many sorts of questions that simply do not fall under the domain of science. Borrowing an example from the Rev. John Polkinghorne, there is more than one answer to the question of “Why is the water boiling in the tea kettle?”4 The scientific answer might be “the water is boiling because at this temperature it undergoes a phase transition from liquid to vapor.” Another acceptable, though nonscientific, answer is “the water is boiling because I put the kettle on the stove.” A third answer might be “the water is boiling because my prayer partner is coming over for tea.” None of the answers is wrong; rather, each gives a different perspective on the question. The scientific answer does not tell the whole story. Science cannot answer questions like “Is my friend trustworthy?” or “Is this poem well written?” Science is tremendously successful in understanding the physical world, but we should not let that tempt us to think it can be used to understand everything in life.

Artist Mark Sprinkle writes on the importance of music and poetry in understanding God’s world.

Science cannot answer the question “Does God exist?” Some people argue that God’s existence is actually a scientific claim that could be tested like a chemical reaction. But science studies the natural world, not the supernatural. No amount of scientific testing or theorizing could prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural creator. The claim that “God exists” is a metaphysical one, not a claim about nature or physical laws

Though science cannot prove or disprove God’s existence, it can provide clues that support belief in God. See “What is the fine-tuning of the universe?” and “On what grounds can one claim that the Christian God is the creator?”
This model also reminds us that the Bible is not the only source of knowledge. The Bible is silent on most of the topics that concern scientists, like protons, photosynthesis, penguins, and Pluto. The Bible is not a science textbook, in the same way that it is not a textbook of plumbing, agriculture, or economics. Instead, God teaches us about these things through his general revelation in the created order.

However, this model has some significant weaknesses. It isolates religion from science, which can be a first step in marginalizing religion from public discourse. By defining religion and science as separate, this model doesn’t help us understand the interactions they do have, either negative or positive. The model also sets science on its own, apart from religion, while Christians believe that no part of our lives is outside of our walk with God.

Science and Christianity interact, correcting and enhancing each other
While many questions can be clearly categorized as “science” questions or as “Bible” questions, other questions are on the boundary. For topics like evolution, medical ethics, and climate change, we need to consider both science and faith when seeking out God’s truth. For such complex questions, we need all the knowledge and wisdom we can get, rather than handicapping ourselves by looking only to science or only to the Bible.

Collins, as said before, has never said that Science does not lead to having a basis for knowing God does exist. By itself it cannot show that God exists (as God is more than natural phenomena ) - but it does help in giving pointers to the fact that a creator DOES exist. And that is Collins in context. Speaking past that doesn't deal at all with what Collins has said.

Like I said, if you want to promote falsehood on what another said, no one is stopping you. But don't do so blaming others who disagree and claiming green is somehow red.
In essence, Collin's himself admits science can neither prove or disprove God
Not according to what he already said when he spoke on science giving pointers and science connecting with the METAPHYSICAL realm, bridging. Thus, it is again another falsehood you've advocated past what Collins actually said when it comes to science/pointers (especially fine-tuning of the universe and mathematics), it not being able to prove all things and yet also not being disconnected from God. Thus again, you already gave your opinion and not actually dealt with science at all. That is not rational.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Gxg (G²);65885544 said:
Collins never said that DNA being God's Language was his own personal belief at any point - what he does note is that there's no escaping the fact that DNA has a designer...and the evidence of a Creator. Whether others feel it's Zeus or aliens is irrelevant since his main point was and always will be that the DNA itself has a creator. In The Language of God, Collins argues strongly for scientific evidence of intelligent design (though he doesn’t call it that) in cosmology and human psychology. He adduces the fine-tuning of the universe’s physical constants at the Big Bang, and human moral instincts, as features of physical existence that defy purely material explanations. “I cannot see how nature could have created itself,” he writes. And “ DNA sequence alone…will never explain certain special human attributes, such as the knowledge of the Moral Law and the universal search for God.”

However, turning to biology and the evolution of life in its countless forms, he dismisses intelligent design as an “argument from personal incredulity.” He writes that a religious believer may coherently believe in life as having been “specified” by God, and in genetic language as a kind of communication from God, even though, as per Darwinian theory, the evolutionary process was entirely unguided. Collins reconciles the seeming contradiction of a “specified” yet unguided history of life by observing that God stands outside time and so is unlimited by the human temporal perspective.

Like I said, if you want to promote falsehood on what another said, no one is stopping you. But don't do so blaming others who disagree and claiming green is somehow red.
Not according to what he already said when he spoke on science giving pointers and science connecting with the METAPHYSICAL realm, bridging. Thus, it is again another falsehood you've advocated past what Collins actually said when it comes to science/pointers (especially fine-tuning of the universe and mathematics), it not being able to prove all things and yet also not being disconnected from God. Thus again, you already gave your opinion and not actually dealt with science at all. That is not rational.

Yea, it isn't rational, right.

I tell you what, you interpret what Collin's is saying as you do, I will just say I disagree with your interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟187,250.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I've had more than one experience where people expected their testimony to convert me. Great for them, but it doesn't provide anything to me personally.
.
Join the club - everyone has had it where others tried to win them over with a story or sharing of an event. But it really isn't true whenever others claim universally that testimonies don't provide something personally. The day and moment one spoke of the good experiences they had with pagans - as well as the things they learned from it - it became a testimony. Regardless of whether the format differed - at any point someone says "I disagree ...this is what I think....what I've experienced....all people in this group are like this", there is an attempt to convey the emotions/experiences and what they see as logic to another.
if I were to come up with a testimony about paganism, Christians would lose their minds. Preaching a testimony seems to be only a thing in big evangelical churches
Plenty of folks I know who are Christian and haven't lost their minds yet - even though they do disagree - but anytime someone claims of another religious (or non-religious system) "They're so judgmental and I couldn't accept what they believe because of it" or advocating their view, they are giving a testimony.
 
Upvote 0

BaconWizard

Regular Member
Jan 8, 2014
934
37
UK
✟23,742.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Frankly, there are so many things that affect how we feel (from deeply depressed through to rapturous) and what we experience, which can range from ordinary perception through to full-on hallucination. Music, food, drugs, ambient standing waves, illusion, brain chemistry in general, stresses, self hypnosis, etc... my point being that I would not necessarily trust my OWN testimony of some event or visitation or whatever that was clearly magical or supernatural. Less still anyone else's.

True, a widely shared experience would warrant engaging with it more. But that can also be recreated on demand, if you speak to the right people.

Such events leave exactly as much evidence that can withstand proper scrutiny as the myriad other claims one can find littering the internet or various books... bigfoot, alien abduction, ghosts, mediums contacting the dead, et-all. Which is to say, NONE.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Oct 20, 2015
12
2
28
✟15,142.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I am an Atheist, but I don't go around waving a "God doesn't exist!" flag or anything, I just simply see the world a different way that religious people do, doesn't make me any less moral or nice. There are a lot of Christians in the world that hate atheists, or think they are all "Going against god" or "Hate god" and don't respect them as people, I hope anyone who is like that and is reading this, I am not a bad person, in fact I am the opposite, I am a law enforcement officer, so just because I don't accept your world view doesn't make me any less good than you. Just different, :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bhsmte
Upvote 0