Atheism. What are your thoughts?

[Wiccan_Child]

Prayer is something to show God that you want to have a relationship. It is a way to show him you have faith. For example, everyone in my family knows that I love my mom more than anyone else. To show my love, I can keep telling her that I love her. I can also buy her gifts to SHOW her that I love her. God expects us to show our love by praying and trusting him.

I'm well aware of that, and I take great pains to make that clear - the amount of times I've discussed the subject of praying for something, only for the other person to go off on a tangent about how prayer is a way to communicate, etc...

Anyway. I'm simply asking you about your statements regarding prayer. Here you say that it's a way to talk to God, to have a relationship with him. Before, you said, "Ask, and ye shall receive", with the caveat that ye only receive when it's in God's will.

This naturally leads to a couple of questions. If X is in God's will, then X is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pray for it. Why, then, pray for X?

I think it's a common misconception that you will get whatever you want as long as you ask with an open heart. Nothing goes against God's will; nothing.

That is, you said that "God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan". That's fine. But if nothing goes against God's will, then what does it matter whether we pray for something or not, with regards to its likelihood of occurring?

If you pray for someone to be healed, is your prayer isn't going to make it any more likely that God will heal him? Either it's in God's will to heal him, in which case he's going to do it anyway, or it's not, in which case he's not going to do it. Whether or not you pray for this doesn't seem to change this outcome.

So, to reiterate my first question, what use is it saying "God will give you what you ask for", if he doesn't actually give you anything (except those things he was going to give you anyway, asked for or not asked for)?

 

[Gadarene]

I'm gonna have to echo the comments made already about how incoherent this notion of prayer is.

If God is omniscient and his will always come to pass, then he already knows you want to seek a relationship before you've prayed, and he isn't going to change his will regardless of whether or not you pray.

So what possible use could it have?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'm gonna have to echo the comments made already about how incoherent this notion of prayer is.

If God is omniscient and his will always come to pass, then he already knows you want to seek a relationship before you've prayed, and he isn't going to change his will regardless of whether or not you pray.

So what possible use could it have?

To be fair, it could be of personal use to the individual, generating hope, alleviating grief, etc. What I'm more interested in is why Christians say you should pray for something, and expect a positive result, but then seemingly go back on themselves later on.

 

[Gadarene]

To be fair, it could be of personal use to the individual, generating hope, alleviating grief, etc.

I don't even see how that is possible, if it doesn't actually change anything that's to come. Whatever is going to happen to you is apparently going to happen to you, regardless of whether you pray or not

 

[Asvin]

This naturally leads to a couple of questions. If X is in God's will, then X is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pray for it. Why, then, pray for X?

You are going to die one day right? Why live then? Why not just die now? The point of prayer is to show God how much faith we have in him. It also helps us grow spiritually. Do people pray and not get their prayers answered? Of course! That shows that God has something else planned for us.

That is, you said that "God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan". That's fine. But if nothing goes against God's will, then what does it matter whether we pray for something or not, with regards to its likelihood of occurring?

The same reason why people buy lottery tickets and vote. If you pray, you will get it if its in God's will. If it is not in his will, you won't get it. If you don't pray at all, you might or might not get it. Praying is to show your trust and faith in God. I don't know how else to put it.

So, to reiterate my first question, what use is it saying "God will give you what you ask for", if he doesn't actually give you anything (except those things he was going to give you anyway, asked for or not asked for)?

"Doesn't actually give you anything"? Really? God doesn't give you ANYTHING? Rethink that thought through. The purpose of us humans is to glorify and serve God. Not to ask him for a new Ferrari or a 100 on a final exam. He will give you whatever he likes and no human should question that. We deserve death, but we should be happy God is kind enough to even let us live. What that verse you quoted means is simply this:

God will give you whatever is in his will.
Praying is to show you trust and have faith in God.
You may or may not get what you pray for, so what?
God doesn't say that you will get whatever you want, even if it is not the best for you, and even if it is against his will.

 

[Gadarene]

You are going to die one day right? Why live then? Why not just die now? The point of prayer is to show God how much faith we have in him. It also helps us grow spiritually. Do people pray and not get their prayers answered? Of course! That shows that God has something else planned for us.

But God already knows how much faith you have in him, if indeed he is omniscient.

In fact, according to the Bible, God DETERMINES how much faith you have in him.

The same reason why people buy lottery tickets and vote. If you pray, you will get it if its in God's will. If it is not in his will, you won't get it. If you don't pray at all, you might or might not get it. Praying is to show your trust and faith in God. I don't know how else to put it.

The point is the outcome is the same regardless of whether or not you pray.

This is quite different to lotto and voting. You definitely will not get what you want if you don't take part, whereas your odds of getting what you want will change if you do take part. This is the opposite of what you're claiming about prayer where the odds don't change if you do or don't play, because apparently nothing can countermand God's will.

"Doesn't actually give you anything"? Really? God doesn't give you ANYTHING? Rethink that thought through.

You may want to not cherrypick the quote you were responding to instead.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You are going to die one day right? Why live then? Why not just die now? The point of prayer is to show God how much faith we have in him. It also helps us grow spiritually.

Yes, as I expained, I'm well aware of that concept, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Do people pray and not get their prayers answered? Of course! That shows that God has something else planned for us.

Right, but that doesn't answer my questions. You said that God grants these prayer requests if, and only if, they happen to coincide with his will. But if it's his will, then it would happen anyway. Thus, whether you pray for it or not, it's going to happen. So, it seems that God doesn't grant you anything - he makes stuff happen, and sometimes your prayer requests coincide with that.

Which part have I got wrong?

The same reason why people buy lottery tickets and vote. If you pray, you will get it if its in God's will. If it is not in his will, you won't get it. If you don't pray at all, you might or might not get it. Praying is to show your trust and faith in God. I don't know how else to put it.

You're saying two different things. Yes, praying in general shows your trust and faith in God, builds a relationship, etc. But you also made quite a different claim: you say ask, and, if it's in God's will, ye shall receive. But what's the point in making that statement if God's will is going to be carried out anyway?

What difference does it make, with regards to the eventual outcome (not one's spiritual growth, etc), whether or not you ask?

"Doesn't actually give you anything"? Really? God doesn't give you ANYTHING? Rethink that thought through.

Err, you appear to have truncated the main qualifying parts of my sentence:

"[W]hat use is it saying "God will give you what you ask for", if he doesn't actually give you anything (except those things he was going to give you anyway, asked for or not asked for)?"

I'm not saying he doesn't give you stuff, I thought I was quite transparent that I've accepted that for the sake of argument. I'm saying he doesn't give you more stuff because you pray for it, or less stuff because you don't. 'Stuff' can be anything, divine healing, etc.

What that verse you quoted means is simply this:

God will give you whatever is in his will.
Praying is to show you trust and have faith in God.
You may or may not get what you pray for, so what?
God doesn't say that you will get whatever you want, even if it is not the best for you, and even if it is against his will.

Then why say, "Ask, and ye shall receive", if asking doesn't affect whether or not you receive what it is you ask for?

According to you, I should pray for divine healing. But, also according to you, whether or not God will deign to heal the sick individual doesn't change because of my prayer. That is, even though I asked, I'm not more or less likely to receive than if I didn't ask.

So, it seems you're saying that asking for something won't actually get it you, that God doesn't grant prayer requests - there are only prayer requests that just so happen to coincide with God's actions.

The purpose of us humans is to glorify and serve God.

If he would end suffering, I'd gladly do that. As it happens, I see no reason to, even if he did exist.

Not to ask him for a new Ferrari or a 100 on a final exam. He will give you whatever he likes and no human should question that.

If he grants a rich politician a speedy recovery from her diabetes, but wont' grant food to starving kids in Africa, I certainly will question it.

We deserve death, but we should be happy God is kind enough to even let us live.

Being thankful that the gunman didn't pull the trigger doesn't absolve him from holding the gun to your head in the first place.

 

[Eudaimonist]

We deserve death, but we should be happy God is kind enough to even let us live.

If Richard Dawkins were to say something like that about Christian doctrine, saying that this is what Christians believe, I wonder how many people would think he was being very negative.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gadarene]

If Richard Dawkins were to say something like that about Christian doctrine, saying that this is what Christians believe, I wonder how many people would think he was being very negative.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I don't Asvin is specifically claiming to speak for all Christians.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't Asvin is specifically claiming to speak for all Christians.

Not my point.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gadarene]

Not my point.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Then what is your point? It seems rather tangential. Has Asvin personally criticised RD for saying such things?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Then what is your point? It seems rather tangential. Has Asvin personally criticised RD for saying such things?

Yes, it was tangential. It was a stray thought.

It's just that Asvin's view of humanity's relation to God is so negative at root that anti-theists (taking Richard Dawkins just for example) would rightly be considered very negative people to take such a view about Christian doctrine. I'm hoping that Asvin and others will reconsider their views by reflecting on the irony.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gadarene]

Yes, it was tangential. It was a stray thought.

It's just that Asvin's view of humanity's relation to God is so negative at root that anti-theists (taking Richard Dawkins just for example) would rightly be considered very negative people to take such a view about Christian doctrine. I'm hoping that Asvin and others will reconsider their views by reflecting on the irony.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Ehh, I guess. I'm just wary of applying too broad a stroke, given that we're talking an individual's views rather than the collected views of a group of people. What Asvin thinks about Christianity or RD or whatever shouldn't necessarily be beholden to what other Christians think. Chances are Asvin could well agree with RD's assessment of God even if it was quite grim, just not the moral evaluation of it.

 

[Eudaimonist]

What Asvin thinks about Christianity or RD or whatever shouldn't necessarily be beholden to what other Christians think.

I'm not saying that it is, although I have heard some other Christians utter similar opinions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

Subjective experience is personal but I see God communicating throughout history first to Israel and then He became a man and dwelt among us. Jesus communicated very well by any objective measure. His healings were seen, He performed many miracles including bringing back dead people including himself. Over 500 people saw him at the same time after His resurrection. Objectively He has changed the world. Someone tried to figure out what the world would look like without the influence of Christ ... it was very interesting. Nothing good would exist. God's love and creativity have permeated every corner of the world. We'd all be like animals or barbarians at best without him. Without Him the world would be a dark place filled with evil. He restrains evil, yet allows it for a purpose. If you examine His life honestly, you will discover pure love that could not be contrived by any group of skilled authors. Read the sermon on the mount, it has a healing effect. His words are sharper than a sword and they penitrate into your soul. If you are depressed, read the various comforting scriptures. You can actually find the answers to life's most important questions in the Bible. Who am I? Where did I come from? Who is God? What is our purpose here? Where am I going and how do I get there? God has clearly communicated to us inwardly and outwardly.

You are just provided an an example of how "God" has *not* clearly communicated anything.

Some personal testimony, an unsupportable claim of objective measure.

Some snippets of bible stories.

Without Him the world would be a dark place filled with evil? Do you see the contradiction in that assertion?

And maybe you can find the answers to life's most important questions in the Bible.

Just none that you can demonstrate to be of any significance.

I don't know what two-way communication with an omniscient deity would look like, but it is my expectation that it would rise above confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

 

[Ronald]

[

quote=Eudaimonist;60501210]In other words, they seem orchestrated to you.

If this was a subjective experience for me only, then yes. But when 2 billion christians confirm that God is in control of every event on the planet, then it no longer "seems" that way to me. He is sovereign.

Though I don't see how transformation is part of an ongoing relationship. It sounds like a one-time event.

Being born-again spiritually from above is a one-time event. Sanctification means set apart and sealed. But then there is an ongoing transformation of the infant spirit that needs to grow and mature spiritually. By the word of God and the help of the Holy Spirit, he brings us through this process to be Christ-like. We don't stop growing and learning. It's a life-long process.

What do you mean by "sin" being removed? Are you talking about an improved character?

Jesus died for our past, present and future sins. Everything you've ever done wrong is attached to you like a rap sheet, it's your criminal record or so to speak. When you ask for His forgiveness and put your faith in Jesus, He forgives those sins and washes them away perminently! The christian continues to fall and sin as we have all seen and we continue to confees our sins, but they are not sins unto the penalty of death. They dwell int he members of our flesh and when we die, we leave them behing and our spirit ascends.
We don't just automatically become holy and pure. He makes us holy over time. We begin to see the sin in our lives and hate it. When we look in the mirror, realize this through the trials of experience, we say no to our old ways, we mortify them. We die to our old selves and begin to walk with God. Obviously, character is demonstrated. "By their fruit you will know them".
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Galations 5:22-23

As for guilt, that is not beyond some sort of psychological change

.
Whether a believer in God or not, a person who feels guilt can confess to the person they did wrong to and receive forgiveness. We all do that, but the sin remains on your rap sheet until Christ removes it. You cannot remove it yourself even though the issue appears settled between the two parties and they forget about it. God only forgets the sins that He himself washes away.

Your guilt may have been removed, and your character may even have been improved, but absolutely no wrong has been undone. The past still happened. I can understand that you feel forgiven, or that there are some bad habits that you no longer have.

Wrongs cannot be undone. We remember them. But forgiveness from God means that the consequences of your sin (wages) is removed. There's a redemption, Christ paid the price for your wrongs. He took upon himself and suffered on our behalf. The wages of sin is death and at that time you do not want to have to pay the price.

In my view, it is your brain that did that.

You do not have spiritual vision. A veil exists over you preventing you from seeing. I was blind and now I see. This is a well known experience. The truth will set you free, free from the bondage of sin and death.

Thank you for clarifying what you mean by a "relationship" with God.

My pleasure.
Ron

 

[drjean]

Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists? He says in Romans 1:18,19: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom. 1:18,19 - NKJV)

So using the "atheist's" logic: " God doesn't believe in atheists, so atheists don't exist" would then be a true statement.

 

[Mling]

Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists? He says in Romans 1:18,19: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom. 1:18,19 - NKJV)

So using the "atheist's" logic: " God doesn't believe in atheists, so atheists don't exist" would then be a true statement.

Except that no atheist has ever claimed that their unbelief is what causes gods not to exist.

 

[quatona]

Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists? He says in Romans 1:18,19: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom. 1:18,19 - NKJV)

So using the "atheist's" logic: " God doesn't believe in atheists, so atheists don't exist" would then be a true statement.

What is "the 'atheist´s' logic" you are referring to here?

 

[Davian]

Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists? He says in Romans 1:18,19: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom. 1:18,19 - NKJV)

So using the "atheist's" logic: " God doesn't believe in atheists, so atheists don't exist" would then be a true statement.

My logic would be, you have not shown that "God" said anything, all you have is something someone wrote in a book, so your post falls apart at "He says..."