Atheism. What are your thoughts?

[KCfromNC]

Non belief is flawed.

Proof for this claim?

So you have discovered that The Bible is true.

Nope, it's wrong on a lot of very basic things. You don't keep slaves, do you?

If The Bible says to seek the truth, and the term "science" refers to seeking the truth, there is no contradiction.

Depends on the methods used. I don't remember reading about falsifiability or Chi-squared tests in the bible. Maybe something was lost in translation.

If The Bible says, pray according to Gods will and you shall have that that you have prayed for, isn't it logical to test that before coming to a conclusion and accussing it as wrong?

Yep. It's been done and the results show that the Bible is wrong here, as it is in many other claims it makes.

 

[KCfromNC]

"Claiming to be acting on his behalf"? or trusting in Him and giving credit to where credit is due?

The former.

 

[KCfromNC]

So we are inviting you to test it. The Bible offers answers and invites you to test it out by following the directions contained in it, to get the results that your looking for. That sounds wonderful. Very open and straight forward.

As the saying foes, for every complex problem there's an answers which is simple, straightforward, and wrong. The Bible's conflicting answers to the origin of the universe fall into this category.

 

[KCfromNC]

You failed on your last statement when you said that's no excuse to make up a god.
I took god out of the equation, you brought him back in it and in a sarcastic way. I submit to you that it was you who ventured of the path of mutual respect. I could have worded my post many ways in some in ways to look down on atheists. I chose not to do that. I just wanted to point out for the record, even when a believer is totally respectful of atheists what they can expect from some, certainly not all. I have met some who can communicate with out being condescending or belittling or sarcastic. It's always a pleasure to meet individuals like that regardless of their beliefs or lack of beliefs. You failed and should really apologies or get out of the discussion. Because you are on the same level with believers who would like to beat the gospel in to you. I find both extremes displeasing. Good day.

I keep looking, but somehow I can't find any on-topic answer to my post. Strange, it's almost as if you're trying to avoid it.

 

[Ronald]

Would it be fair to say that you perceive this relationship as having the following characteristics?

1) Events that seem orchestrated, and not occurring by chance

2) Answers to your unspoken questions delivered in sermons by preachers

3) A sense of an internal psychological force (that you call the Holy Spirit) influencing your speech and actions.


Did I miss anything?

1.) The events are unmistakingly orchestrated. The Holy Spirit confirms your relationship. "Seem" is sort of, not sure. He seals our salvation, it's this certainty. That is what faith is: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
2.)One example of an answer to a prayer would be through a pastor, brother or sister in Christ in an unsolicited act or communication -- something you may or may not have asked for.
Usually my prayers are for the needs of others and for wisdom, guidance, peace and to be like Jesus.
3.) A spiritual sense of God is deeper than a psychological or physical sense of some "force". We experience change, we become aware of sin in our lives and the world and we are transformed. A psychological force cannot remove sin and cannot remove guilt. Forgiveness or all you've done wrong cannot be removed by any force. It is God who washes away the sin and gives you a new spirit, enabling you to see the world differently, to experience and know Him.

 

[keith99]

As the saying foes, for every complex problem there's an answers which is simple, straightforward, and wrong. The Bible's conflicting answers to the origin of the universe fall into this category.

Actually it would be more fair to criticize the way some interpert the Bible. To many what the Bible itself says does not include a simple straightforward explaination on hte origin of the Universe.

 

[Ronald]

Why is it, by any objective measure, that this communication is only one way?

Subjective experience is personal but I see God communicating throughout history first to Israel and then He became a man and dwelt among us. Jesus communicated very well by any objective measure. His healings were seen, He performed many miracles including bringing back dead people including himself. Over 500 people saw him at the same time after His resurrection. Objectively He has changed the world. Someone tried to figure out what the world would look like without the influence of Christ ... it was very interesting. Nothing good would exist. God's love and creativity have permeated every corner of the world. We'd all be like animals or barbarians at best without him. Without Him the world would be a dark place filled with evil. He restrains evil, yet allows it for a purpose. If you examine His life honestly, you will discover pure love that could not be contrived by any group of skilled authors. Read the sermon on the mount, it has a healing effect. His words are sharper than a sword and they penitrate into your soul. If you are depressed, read the various comforting scriptures. You can actually find the answers to life's most important questions in the Bible. Who am I? Where did I come from? Who is God? What is our purpose here? Where am I going and how do I get there? God has clearly communicated to us inwardly and outwardly.

 

[Asvin]

Nope, it's wrong on a lot of very basic things. You don't keep slaves, do you?

Does the Bible condone slavery?

Yep. It's been done and the results show that the Bible is wrong here, as it is in many other claims it makes.

You cannot test God to see if he is real by asking for something like a good grade on a test or winning the lottery. The Bible is clear in stating that God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Does the Bible condone slavery?



You cannot test God to see if he is real by asking for something like a good grade on a test or winning the lottery. The Bible is clear in stating that God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan.

If something is in God's will, won't it happen anyway, prayer or no prayer?

 

[someguy14]

If something is in God's will, won't it happen anyway, prayer or no prayer?

Exodus 17:1-7

 

[Asvin]

If something is in God's will, won't it happen anyway, prayer or no prayer?

Yes, it will happen.

 

[Eudaimonist]

1.) The events are unmistakingly orchestrated.

In other words, they seem orchestrated to you. You are the one making the judgment that they are "unmistakably" orchestrated. I would probably conclude differently than you. I know that the human mind can see patterns where none actually exist.

3.) A spiritual sense of God is deeper than a psychological or physical sense of some "force". We experience change, we become aware of sin in our lives and the world and we are transformed.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I agree that the word "force" doesn't cover all of that. Though I don't see how transformation is part of an ongoing relationship. It sounds like a one-time event.

A psychological force cannot remove sin and cannot remove guilt.

What do you mean by "sin" being removed? Are you talking about an improved character?

As for guilt, that is not beyond some sort of psychological change.

Forgiveness or all you've done wrong cannot be removed by any force.

Your guilt may have been removed, and your character may even have been improved, but absolutely no wrong has been undone. The past still happened. I can understand that you feel forgiven, or that there are some bad habits that you no longer have.

It is God who washes away the sin and gives you a new spirit, enabling you to see the world differently, to experience and know Him.

In my view, it is your brain that did that.

Thank you for clarifying what you mean by a "relationship" with God.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, it will happen.

So, what is meant by, "Ask, and ye shall receive"? If what's in God's will is going to happen anyway, and what's not in God's will won't happen, what difference does prayer make with respect to you claim that, "God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan"?

It seems you're saying that God will never give you what you ask for, except when it's going to happen anyway, prayer or no prayer.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No. When I joined CF back in 2005, I was Wiccan, hence the name and avatar. I have since lost my faith, and am now an atheist, but kept my avatar as a throwback to my pagan past. There was never any intention to antagonise, rub, or make a statement.


You answer your own question. "Why are things beautiful? Did nature and these biochemical impulses or motors directed them to be?... What about joy, inner peace and love -- did they evolve too from chemicals?" - yes, yes they did.

Aesthetic is one of those higher-order phenomena that don't have an immediately obvious explanation within evolution (compared to, say, the stripes of a zebra or the counter-shading of a lizard). Nonetheless, the sense of beauty is nothing more than saying one thing is preferable to another based solely on its looks. Culture, as much as evolution, defines what is beautiful, but there are good reasons for why we find a lush, green valley with a meandering, clear blue river running through it, animals wildly gambling about, etc - such a landscape is ideal living conditions, with clean water, and ample game and vegitation. Contrast that to bare, crumbling soil (no water or plants), bones (no animals, and death is common), etc. There are real reasons why the former would be more aesthetically pleasing than the latter. But, of course, culture plays a bigger role, and it's able to swing this basic sense of beauty to point to other things.


The sense of smell is the closest, but don't take it too literally. The spermatozoa is directed by chemical cues that permeate the vagina and beyond. Its tail drives it forward, and its head directs it. Its head, then, points towards the highest concentration of this chemical, or the lowest of that chemical. No actual intelligence is required, any more than an intelligence is needed to explain how a flower follows the Sun.


Sperm only travel at around 1 mm per minute, and the female reproductive tract is quite convoluted, and quite vast in comparison to the size of the sperm and the egg. Without some form of chemical direction, you'd need to carpet the inside of a woman's vagina, uterus, and fallopian tubes, in order to have a chance of hitting the egg. But that's not what happens.


There seems to be no infusion of anything supernatural at any stage. It's a wondrous process, and is well-understood by modern science, but no part of it requires the invocation of spirits.


Held together in what sense? Jesus holds all the protons together, or is it more metaphorical than that?


Actually, it's an incredibly complex process that involves hox genes, regulatory genes, homeoboxes, etc, but it's pretty much all dictated by genetics.


Drop the patronising tone and correct whatever mistakes you think you see. Don't forget I was responding to your words, I wasn't making an exhaustive and sweeping statement of all embryology. You made a fallacious argument (ad ridiculum, to be precise), and I briefly pointed out that, in fact, you weren't far from the truth. You can dismiss it as being fanciful all you want, that's what the evidence shows.


Your threats have been duly noted, and filed away with the rest. Tell me, has your intimidation routine actually ever worked?


So I've heard.

No reply, Ronald?

 

[3rdHeaven]

So, what is meant by, "Ask, and ye shall receive"? If what's in God's will is going to happen anyway, and what's not in God's will won't happen, what difference does prayer make with respect to you claim that, "God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan"?

It seems you're saying that God will never give you what you ask for, except when it's going to happen anyway, prayer or no prayer.

It's God's Will to provide us what we need and ask for as long as it is not contrary to the Word of God.

As for your question, God's Will is not entirely known to us. If we ask for some thing, God already knew before we were born what we would ask and when and had plenty of opportunity to to accomplish all in His good time.

The real question is can we ask for some thing contrary to God's Will and that would be sure but we won't receive it. You can't just ask for a billion dollars or for your neighbor to drop dead.

The concept of predestination and free will is difficult for many believers to grasp, so I don't expect a pagan or atheist or whatever you may be (sorry I don't remember your story) to understand it.

 

[Buy Bologna]

It's God's Will to provide us what we need and ask for as long as it is not contrary to the Word of God.

As for your question, God's Will is not entirely known to us. If we ask for some thing, God already knew before we were born what we would ask and when and had plenty of opportunity to to accomplish all in His good time.

How do you know this?

The bible? Why use the bible to make points to someone who needs evidence that the bible is competent?

What are these statements based off of?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It's God's Will to provide us what we need and ask for as long as it is not contrary to the Word of God.

As for your question, God's Will is not entirely known to us. If we ask for some thing, God already knew before we were born what we would ask and when and had plenty of opportunity to to accomplish all in His good time.

So, if we didn't ask, he would never have altered reality to make our wish come true? That contradicts Asvin, when he says that prayers are only answered if they conform to God's plan, and what God's planned will occur regardless. Who's right, you or him?

The real question is can we ask for some thing contrary to God's Will and that would be sure but we won't receive it. You can't just ask for a billion dollars or for your neighbor to drop dead.

Why not? What if such a thing were in God's will? Would that constitute an answered prayer, or an eventuality that was going to happen anyway which we just so happened to pray for?

If you pray for someone to get better, and God intervenes to make sure that they do, is it because of, or in spite of, your prayer?

The concept of predestination and free will is difficult for many believers to grasp, so I don't expect a pagan or atheist or whatever you may be (sorry I don't remember your story) to understand it.

I understand it quite well, and I see no problem reconciling free will and omniscience. You haven't really answered the question, though: if God only grants prayers that are in accordance to his will or plan, and what he wills is going to happen anyway, then surely praying for something is futile with regards to whether or not it actually happens? If it's God's will, it'll happen, if it's not God's will, it won't happen, prayer or no prayer.

Or, are you saying God's will can be changed by us humans?

 

[Asvin]

So, what is meant by, "Ask, and ye shall receive"? If what's in God's will is going to happen anyway, and what's not in God's will won't happen, what difference does prayer make with respect to you claim that, "God will grant you whatever you ask for, as long as you ask with an honest and open heart, and what you ask for is not against God's will or plan"?

It seems you're saying that God will never give you what you ask for, except when it's going to happen anyway, prayer or no prayer.

Prayer is something to show God that you want to have a relationship. It is a way to show him you have faith. For example, everyone in my family knows that I love my mom more than anyone else. To show my love, I can keep telling her that I love her. I can also buy her gifts to SHOW her that I love her. God expects us to show our love by praying and trusting him. I think it's a common misconception that you will get whatever you want as long as you ask with an open heart. Nothing goes against God's will; nothing.

 

[KCfromNC]

Actually it would be more fair to criticize the way some interpert the Bible. To many what the Bible itself says does not include a simple straightforward explaination on hte origin of the Universe.

Fair enough. I was responding to someone who thinks the Bible is a science textbook, which it obviously isn't. I'm aware that this belief is a modern invention and not a majority view. It's just hard to add a disclaimer around every idea which Christians disagree about since it seems like virtually any idea that's "Christian" has at least a subset of Christians who disagree.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Prayer is something to show God that you want to have a relationship.

Wouldn't God know that already?

God expects us to show our love by praying and trusting him.

Why?


eudaimonia,

Mark