Atheism. What are your thoughts?

[KCfromNC]

God did it is testable friend. We have 66 books to study and apply to our lives.

66 books or more. Or maybe less. You're complaining that science is flawed because it's not perfect and yet you Christians can't even agree on how many books are in your perfect scientific textbook written by God. Someone seems to be ignoring the log in their own eye here...

 

[KCfromNC]

Name one thing Jesus does that offends a non believer.?

Jesus' actions don't generally offend non-believers since he doesn't exist and therefore doesn't do anything. The actions of people claiming to be acting on his behalf, on the other hand...

 

[KCfromNC]

Lets remove God from the equation.

How do you get some thing from nothing?

How do you get something from something else, at a fundamental level? Sure, we see it happening but can you explain to an arbitrary level of detail how it works?

I'll agree that at the scale and energy we're used to dealing with things->other things is common. Don't pretend that our common sense applies to things happening at scales and energies far outside our everyday experiences.

What shall it be? Where do you feel most comfortable?

Believing in things there are evidence for and being honest enough to say "I don't know" when that's the case. And also not attempting to confuse one with the other - i.e. "I don't know" is never evidence for anything other than my lack of understanding. It doesn't imply god, leprechauns or any other sort of magic. It just means we don't know everything and probably never will. That's not an excuse to make up a god to fill in the gaps.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So much for cause and effect.

Indeed, quantum mechanics threw a spanner in those works a long time ago.

Are you saying you are are open to the possibility of an 'effect' without a 'cause'?

Correct.

Is this not somewhat unscientific?

Not at all. If it's real, and if the evidence supports it, then it's absolutely scientific.

 

[KCfromNC]

Not at all.

There may be no proof yet either which way, but I would say that the God-team is still in the weaker position for the simple fact that the God-concept has not been necessary for us to explain any observable phenomenon at all.

Not to mention the fact that "god did it through some mysterious magic we'll never understand" isn't really any different from "I don't know" as far as explanatory power goes.

 

[someguy14]

D. At this point, you must realize that you're not doing Christianity any favors. You're not going to reach anyone with what you're saying, because frankly you're coming across as uneducated.

How so?
Is that your theory?
If I can prove that your wrong, does that, in fact, show that your the one coming across as uneducated.
What have I to do with those, ever learning and never coming to the actual knowledge?

 

[someguy14]

66 books or more. Or maybe less. You're complaining that science is flawed because it's not perfect and yet you Christians can't even agree on how many books are in your perfect scientific textbook written by God. Someone seems to be ignoring the log in their own eye here...

Science is flawed? Non belief is flawed. Science is a term for discovering truth or attempting to discover the truth. Seek and ye shall find. That isn't against seeking for truth, though that was around long before the term "science" existed. So you have discovered that The Bible is true. Do you dismiss that truth and still remain to claim it as wrong? or do you humble yourself and admit that it is true, risking your response that you didn't believe it when it was presented, renedering all of your other accusations against The Bible, as wrong? And instead of saying, "The Bible is wrong", saying, "it is right, or could be right".

If The Bible says to seek the truth, and the term "science" refers to seeking the truth, there is no contradiction.
That is a way of testing The Bible. So far so good.

If The Bible says, pray according to Gods will and you shall have that that you have prayed for, isn't it logical to test that before coming to a conclusion and accussing it as wrong? Seek Gods will, submit to it and then pray, according as He says to pray, then find out if it is true. I have and have proved that The Bible is true. Do you accept that fact that I have proven it to be true? If that is not enough for yourself to believe that truth, test it. Is that logical? Of course it is. Is that rational? Of course it is. Judge nothing before it's time.

If I say, don't jump off of that 1000 foot bridge, free falling, do you go ahead and jump anyway to test it out? Or do you test it out by putting the facts in front you, aware that all that have jumped off of that 1000 foot drop bridge, free falling, have died, and avoid jumping off of it, unless your wanting to die?

 

[someguy14]

Jesus' actions don't generally offend non-believers since he doesn't exist and therefore doesn't do anything. The actions of people claiming to be acting on his behalf, on the other hand...

"Claiming to be acting on his behalf"? or trusting in Him and giving credit to where credit is due?

 

[someguy14]

Believing in things there are evidence for and being honest enough to say "I don't know" when that's the case.

So we are inviting you to test it. The Bible offers answers and invites you to test it out by following the directions contained in it, to get the results that your looking for. That sounds wonderful. Very open and straight forward.

 

[Gadarene]

So we are inviting you to test it. The Bible offers answers and invites you to test it out by following the directions contained in it, to get the results that your looking for. That sounds wonderful. Very open and straight forward.

People here have tested it.

It failed.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I tested it for 44 years.

It failed.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So we are inviting you to test it.

Why should I when what I'm "testing" out now works well for me?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

Perhaps you have related to religion from what you have heard. Religion isn't bad.

I did not say it was bad, but it appears more about asserting their own "truth" rather than finding it, as evidenced by your posts in this thread.

If it helps one another and encourages all to live life to the fullest and love one another.

But does not make it true.

Your being on these boards, christian forums, shows that deep within you, regardless if you are aware of this or not, that you desire to understand it in at least someway.

You are mistaken. I am here to learn about theists, and how to deal with individuals such as yourself.

I am very encouraged by your display to be attentive to others posts. May God bless, friend.

If my friend exhibited this behaviour, they would no longer be my friend.

 

[Ronald]

Scripture also says donkeys can talk

.
God directed that donkey to talk and to me I would rather listen to that donkey's message from God then yours! You're young and you have a lot to learn about the meaning of life and death. I'm curious, why did you choose a pentagram for an avatar and wiccan child for a name ... these are areas that tap into a supernatural realm and evil beings. One of the points represent the spirit, somthing you don't believe in. Actually before Medevil times the five points represented five wounds of Christ. Since you don't believe in God, then I would assume that the devil or any supernatural realm including witchcraft does not exist in your mind either. Was your motive to antagonize Christians, rub up against them in a negative way, making a statement that you are against and in opposition to them for the folly of it all?

My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty ...

Why are things beautiful? Did nature and these biochemical impulses or motors directed them to be? From a premordial slime to Marylyn Monroe -- wow! What about joy, inner peace and love -- did they evolve too from chemicals? Beauty and order strongly point to an intellegent designer who had our esthetically pleasing desires and tastes in mind. We view the colors and designs in nature with wonder and amazement. Chemicals do not have a mind to do this -- wake up and smell the roses!

But let's say he did (Einstein) believe in an intelligent designer - so what?

Just to say that you are without excuse and so was he.

No, we attribute it to well-understood biochemical impulses. Chemical motors drive it forward, and it directs itself using chemical cues within the vagina, cervix, uterus, and fallopian tube, all the way to the positively odours egg. It basically smells it out, but requires no more intelligence than a plant does when it turns towards the Sun.

So sperm cells have a sense of smell? Huh, olfactory senses ... little noses

like this?

They are shot out by force and many I'm sure land directly on the egg with little need to be guided, it's what happens in the following nine months that is quite miraculous. The source of life is supernatural in essence. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" ... and "in Him all things consist", that means held together.

The cells react to their own genetic material, which tells them exactly what to do.

It sounds that simple to you? The genes tell them what to do! Wow! This is a shallow response, like I said, you have a lot to learn. You have bought into an ignorant explanation of how a human embryo develops; but this pillar of understanding upon which you stand and support yourself will someday collapse when you finally realize that God exists and you have sinned against Him. Everyone needs a lesson in humility and yours is coming.

Briefly, our sense of morality is an evolved response to social living. The nebulous urge to not kill other humans stems from the fact that those around you are likely to be your kin, and thus carry something very similar to your genetic code. "Don't kill" is also the basis of a mammalian society - rampant psychopathy would end the society before it began. Thus, to function as a society, we evolved these instincts to curb behaviour that would otherwise doom us.

In your mind, you evolved this way. In mine, I received a moral code from God and now have God living in me to guide me. Christianity is not just a belief system, we actually communicate and experience God in a relationship more real than any other.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Christianity is not just a belief system, we actually communicate and experience God in a relationship more real than any other.

Please describe this relationship.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

...
Christianity is not just a belief system, we actually communicate and experience God in a relationship more real than any other.

Why is it, by any objective measure, that this communication is only one way?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'm curious, why did you choose a pentagram for an avatar and wiccan child for a name ... these are areas that tap into a supernatural realm and evil beings. One of the points represent the spirit, somthing you don't believe in. Actually before Medevil times the five points represented five wounds of Christ. Since you don't believe in God, then I would assume that the devil or any supernatural realm including witchcraft does not exist in your mind either. Was your motive to antagonize Christians, rub up against them in a negative way, making a statement that you are against and in opposition to them for the folly of it all?

No. When I joined CF back in 2005, I was Wiccan, hence the name and avatar. I have since lost my faith, and am now an atheist, but kept my avatar as a throwback to my pagan past. There was never any intention to antagonise, rub, or make a statement.

Why are things beautiful? Did nature and these biochemical impulses or motors directed them to be? From a premordial slime to Marylyn Monroe -- wow! What about joy, inner peace and love -- did they evolve too from chemicals? Beauty and order strongly point to an intellegent designer who had our esthetically pleasing desires and tastes in mind. We view the colors and designs in nature with wonder and amazement. Chemicals do not have a mind to do this -- wake up and smell the roses!

You answer your own question. "Why are things beautiful? Did nature and these biochemical impulses or motors directed them to be?... What about joy, inner peace and love -- did they evolve too from chemicals?" - yes, yes they did.

Aesthetic is one of those higher-order phenomena that don't have an immediately obvious explanation within evolution (compared to, say, the stripes of a zebra or the counter-shading of a lizard). Nonetheless, the sense of beauty is nothing more than saying one thing is preferable to another based solely on its looks. Culture, as much as evolution, defines what is beautiful, but there are good reasons for why we find a lush, green valley with a meandering, clear blue river running through it, animals wildly gambling about, etc - such a landscape is ideal living conditions, with clean water, and ample game and vegitation. Contrast that to bare, crumbling soil (no water or plants), bones (no animals, and death is common), etc. There are real reasons why the former would be more aesthetically pleasing than the latter. But, of course, culture plays a bigger role, and it's able to swing this basic sense of beauty to point to other things.

So sperm cells have a sense of smell?

The sense of smell is the closest, but don't take it too literally. The spermatozoa is directed by chemical cues that permeate the vagina and beyond. Its tail drives it forward, and its head directs it. Its head, then, points towards the highest concentration of this chemical, or the lowest of that chemical. No actual intelligence is required, any more than an intelligence is needed to explain how a flower follows the Sun.

They are shot out by force and many I'm sure land directly on the egg with little need to be guided

Sperm only travel at around 1 mm per minute, and the female reproductive tract is quite convoluted, and quite vast in comparison to the size of the sperm and the egg. Without some form of chemical direction, you'd need to carpet the inside of a woman's vagina, uterus, and fallopian tubes, in order to have a chance of hitting the egg. But that's not what happens.

it's what happens in the following nine months that is quite miraculous. The source of life is supernatural in essence.

There seems to be no infusion of anything supernatural at any stage. It's a wondrous process, and is well-understood by modern science, but no part of it requires the invocation of spirits.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" ... and "in Him all things consist", that means held together.

Held together in what sense? Jesus holds all the protons together, or is it more metaphorical than that?

It sounds that simple to you?

Actually, it's an incredibly complex process that involves hox genes, regulatory genes, homeoboxes, etc, but it's pretty much all dictated by genetics.

The genes tell them what to do! Wow! This is a shallow response, like I said, you have a lot to learn. You have bought into an ignorant explanation of how a human embryo develops; but this pillar of understanding upon which you stand and support yourself will someday collapse when you finally realize that God exists and you have sinned against Him.

Drop the patronising tone and correct whatever mistakes you think you see. Don't forget I was responding to your words, I wasn't making an exhaustive and sweeping statement of all embryology. You made a fallacious argument (ad ridiculum, to be precise), and I briefly pointed out that, in fact, you weren't far from the truth. You can dismiss it as being fanciful all you want, that's what the evidence shows.

Everyone needs a lesson in humility and yours is coming.

Your threats have been duly noted, and filed away with the rest. Tell me, has your intimidation routine actually ever worked?

In your mind, you evolved this way. In mine, I received a moral code from God and now have God living in me to guide me. Christianity is not just a belief system, we actually communicate and experience God in a relationship more real than any other.

So I've heard.

 

[3rdHeaven]

How do you get something from something else, at a fundamental level? Sure, we see it happening but can you explain to an arbitrary level of detail how it works?

I'll agree that at the scale and energy we're used to dealing with things->other things is common. Don't pretend that our common sense applies to things happening at scales and energies far outside our everyday experiences.

Believing in things there are evidence for and being honest enough to say "I don't know" when that's the case. And also not attempting to confuse one with the other - i.e. "I don't know" is never evidence for anything other than my lack of understanding. It doesn't imply god, leprechauns or any other sort of magic. It just means we don't know everything and probably never will. That's not an excuse to make up a god to fill in the gaps.

You failed on your last statement when you said that's no excuse to make up a god.

I took god out of the equation, you brought him back in it and in a sarcastic way. I submit to you that it was you who ventured of the path of mutual respect. I could have worded my post many ways in some in ways to look down on atheists. I chose not to do that. I just wanted to point out for the record, even when a believer is totally respectful of atheists what they can expect from some, certainly not all. I have met some who can communicate with out being condescending or belittling or sarcastic. It's always a pleasure to meet individuals like that regardless of their beliefs or lack of beliefs. You failed and should really apologies or get out of the discussion. Because you are on the same level with believers who would like to beat the gospel in to you. I find both extremes displeasing. Good day.

 

[Ronald]

Please describe this relationship

.
I have to give you a little background.
I became a Christian at the age of 35. I was brought up without god-fearing parents: an atheist dad and a mom who believes in a smorgasbord mixture of Hindu, Buddhist and humanism, but mainly a bad case of narcissism. Loving, caring parents they were -- very liberal though. But I always suspected that there was something else other than this life, something more. I studied Buddhism, Hinduism, heck I even got into Dianetics for a phase. I was curious with the supernatural and read some books on Edgar Cayce, channeling and astral-projection (even tried to project myself out of body). I delved into the mysteries of the pyramids, the Bermuda triangle, Easter Island and such things. We use to sit around and talk about all that stuff ... but nothing grabbed me. It all led to futility and death without meaning.
I became a Christian through an obvious orchestrated series of events and people that came into my life that could not have happened by chance. I met a person who talked about Jesus and I was open, kind of ready at that time. She didn't force it down my throat but as I asked questions she answered them. Finally she invited to her church and I was really moved. I had been a long haired hippie type many years ago and this pastor had long hair and everyone in the church wore jeans. He taught about Christ in a way that related to our lives and it struck a cord deep down. I said, yeah, this is interesting. A month or so went by and I said to myself I need to get a Bible and read about this Jesus. I couldn't start in the Old Testament, that seemed far-fetched to me so I started with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and read. I had my door open and I received it and believed. At the time, I was a driver for an airport shuttle service. On Jan. 1, 1991 I dropped off a couple at the airport and didn't have any business. Rules are that there is to be no soliciting customers. They had to approaching you. Well, I bent the rules a little. A voice inside told me to ask this lady standing close by if she needed a ride. She said, yes, actually six of us are going to Anaheim to a convention. I said, OK, let me call my dispatch and clear with him. They got on and we started to talk. They said we are going to a Christian convention to see this famous speaker. I told them about my recent experience and they said that this girl is praying for you and God is knocking on your door ... all these things, including us did not happen by chance, they were orchestrated by God who led you to this moment or enlightenment. I truly believed that. We got there and they surrounded me and prayed for me and I asked for forgiveness of my sins and believed that He died and rose on the third day and received Him as my Lord. I cried with joy. In the beginning, I had a load of questions, they were answered. I would talk to God and He would answer me days later through some preacher that got on my shuttle or in a sermon as if it was tailored to my needs. He reveals himself to you in many ways. It is very exciting in the beginning. They call it, a honeymoon because He really makes Himself known. There are many times the Holy Spirit intervenes in my conversation and takes over or in other situations, steers my away from evil or doing something bad. Sometimes for weeks or months, nothing, but you know He is there protecting and guiding. I knew that in my past He was always there protecting and loving me, pulling me out of danger and telling me, go this way or that way. That's all it's about, a loving relationship forever.

 

[Eudaimonist]

They call it, a honeymoon because He really makes Himself known.

Would it be fair to say that you perceive this relationship as having the following characteristics?

1) Events that seem orchestrated, and not occurring by chance

2) Answers to your unspoken questions delivered in sermons by preachers

3) A sense of an internal psychological force (that you call the Holy Spirit) influencing your speech and actions.


Did I miss anything?


eudaimonia,

Mark