Atheism is amoral

essentialsaltes

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Yes. I'm just stating that even those religions accept that their moral rules come from their god or gods.

Right, but since you believe that most of those gods don't exist, clearly the existence of the gods is not required in order to produce these moral rules.
 
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HenryM

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Why do you exclude The Book from Muslim Holy writings? Is it because it is applying the same tests to it will give the same picture of Islam and you then would have to come to teh same conclusion about other religions that follow The Book?

What book was I excluding? I referenced Quran and Hadith. If you are talking about Sunna, well I am not scholar in Islam. You research Quran and Hadith and you'll get all you need. Hadith is collection of everything Mohammed ever said, while Sunna is collection of what he did. Research Quran and Hadith and you basically get Sunna too.
 
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keith99

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What book was I excluding? I referenced Quran and Hadith. If you are talking about Sunna, well I am not scholar in Islam. You research Quran and Hadith and you'll get all you need. Hadith is collection of everything Mohammed ever said, while Sunna is collection of what he did. Research Quran and Hadith and you basically get Sunna too.

Wow! You really don't know? That says a lot about just how deeply you delved into things. You might want to look up just which books Islam considers Holy.
 
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Belk

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As you go further from foundational belief, people have more different views on various issues. That's true.

But the more foundational the issue is, the greater the agreement.

I do not know that this is true.

All theists basically agree there is a being who created universe and everything in it.

Some do, some do not. A lot of the older religions had gods that populated an already formed universe. They did not even contemplate the idea of t where the entirety of reality came from.

All atheists by definition agree that they don't believe in God, and as a consequence, you generally believe that universe and life came from nothing, by chance.

No. I'm guessing there are very few Atheists who believe in a Universe from nothing by chance. Perhaps you should listen to what we say instead of trying to assign our positions to us?
 
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Nithavela

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Some do, some do not. A lot of the older religions had gods that populated an already formed universe. They did not even contemplate the idea of t where the entirety of reality came from.
Many polytheistic gods actually have one set of gods as the creators of the universe and then a second set of gods that usurps, kills or eats the creators and takes over. Sometimes those are eaten as well, until you end up with the current pantheon.
 
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HenryM

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Wow! You really don't know? That says a lot about just how deeply you delved into things. You might want to look up just which books Islam considers Holy.

So, what that book is, you care to tell?

I am not a scholar on Islam, nor do I ever pretend to be. I do know more than most people, and I know enough. Anyway, what's the book?
 
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Belk

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Many polytheistic gods actually have one set of gods as the creators of the universe and then a second set of gods that usurps, kills or eats the creators and takes over. Sometimes those are eaten as well, until you end up with the current pantheon.

A good point. The Greek and Roman gods spring to mind (pun intended).
 
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HenryM

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I'm guessing there are very few Atheists who believe in a Universe from nothing by chance. Perhaps you should listen to what we say instead of trying to assign our positions to us?

Do you believe in big bang and evolution? Or at least do you think that that's most probable explanation how universe and life get to exist, as far as you are aware of?
 
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Belk

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Do you believe in big bang and evolution? Or at least do you think that that's most probable explanation how universe and life get to exist, as far as you are aware of?


I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about the views of atheists. The only view atheists have in common is a lack of beliefs in gods. There is literally nothing else that all atheists have a common view on.
 
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HenryM

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I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about the views of atheists. The only view atheists have in common is a lack of beliefs in gods. There is literally nothing else that all atheists have a common view on.

Why would you hide your answer?

Do you believe in big bang and evolution? Or at least do you think that that's most probable explanation how universe and life get to exist, as far as you are aware of?
 
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Nithavela

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Why would you hide your answer?

Do you believe in big bang and evolution? Or at least do you think that that's most probable explanation how universe and life get to exist, as far as you are aware of?
Don't answer that, before you know it you'll realise that there is actually no point in being good because there is no god watching and judging you, and before you know it you'll be wading in the blood of the innocent like so many atheists before you.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Of course it's amoral, when you think about it. That doesn't mean that individual atheist is amoral. But he or she is moral for reason outside of atheism, not because of atheism.

Atheism is amoral because it's a worldview that everything including life came from nothing, by chance, and that it will all ultimately end in nothing.

So it's nothingness at the beggining and end, and in between is chance. That's the highest principle that sets up atheistic existence.

It's obvious that there's no place for true morality within atheism.

But there is place for hedonism. What seems like morality withinin atheism is just a form of hedonism.

It's "whatever rocks my boat" attitude. There can't be morally good or bad if existence is set up by chance, from nothingness, going into nothingness. But there can be pleasure.

In atheistic worldview, one person can think that peace is good and war is bad. But that's just his or her private hedonism. Other person can think that murder is great, and that's equally fine, since everything came from nothing, is governed by chance, and ultimately goes back into nothing. Both opinions are perfectly in line with foundation of atheistic existence.

So, if hundred people group together and make a weapon that ends up killing everybody on earth, that's neither good or bad within atheistic worldview. That was just an event that was ultimately governed by chance.

Yes, that event is subjectively bad for murdered people who can't exercise their hedonism anymore, but that principle - to exercise own hedonism - is far, far below principles of coming from and ending in nothingness, by chance. Probably even infinitely below those foundational principles.

I got to the words "atheistic worldview" then gave up.
 
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Rajni

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One can derive morality from any number of sources, specific religions being only one such source.

If religious people are so moral, why is the vast majority of people in a prison religious?
Indeed. John 16:2 even admits that believers in God are quite capable of committing atrocities.
 
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jayem

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But anyway, since you exist you have some foundational belief about your existence. And since you don't believe that God, Creator of universe and all life, exists, you believe or have a hunch or have a leaning towards some understanding of how everything, including you, exist.

And that is, generally - from nothingness by chance into nothingness.

You are demonstrating your ignorance of non-theistic worldviews. Yes, I believe that the universe is purely a function of matter/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. But who says that came from "nothingness?" Why couldn't the matter of the universe have always existed? If you believe a god always existed, why couldn't quarks and photons have always existed?
 
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Hieronymus

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Wow! You really don't know? That says a lot about just how deeply you delved into things. You might want to look up just which books Islam considers Holy.
This?
Zabur - Wikipedia
or do you want to keep it a secret? ;)
 
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Hieronymus

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I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about the views of atheists. The only view atheists have in common is a lack of beliefs in gods. There is literally nothing else that all atheists have a common view on.
Can't you just answer the question?
It is relevant to the topic.
 
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keith99

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This?
Zabur - Wikipedia
or do you want to keep it a secret? ;)

That is probably the least of them when one is getting technical.

The Book is basically the Bible. Though Islam does seem to only include the first 5 books of the OT, books attributed to David and the teachings of Jesus which have been passed on in a corrupted form in the NT (as they see it).

I found it surprising that someone who claimed to have examined Islam (not you) was unfamiliar with that terminology, especially since there are major differences with how Islam interacts with People of The Book and other peoples.
 
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Strathos

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Give us a list of ten famous atheists - people who publicly and absolutely confirmed their conviction that God doesn't exist - who publicly professed their belief in spirits, fairies or the supernatural.

And provide some links for confirmation of what you list.

I don't know about 10, but I can name one. Siddhartha Guatama.
 
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