Atheism is amoral

[HenryM]

Then it is truly ironic that in general he seems to give more to those who do not believe he exists!

That's weird conclusion. Atheists, pagans and satanists are doing most of the killings. Muslims still talk about couple of crusades that happened 10 centuries ago, and yet even those crusades are not done in the name of Jesus Christ because Jesus' own words directly oppose them, so it's most likely that those were not Christians who orchestrated and executed them.

Again, Jesus says that there are many who call themselves His believers, yet he sees them as workers of lawlessness whom He will send away with words: "Depart from me, I never knew you."

 

[Hieronymus]

And yet, many Atheists I know are just as moral (and in some chases it can be more moral) as many Christians. Many Christians I know tell me I am moral.

I'm not disputing that at all.
We all have this thing called 'conscience'.
But in the atheistic / naturalistic view this is evolved to benefit survival, whereas for a Christian this is a law given by God.

If I am so moral, how does that jib with your claim that there is none in an atheistic worldview?

Answer: It doesn't. Because there is no atheistic worldview.

???
Of course there is an atheistic worldview.
It's naturalism:
the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
And there's evolutionism:
the philosophical belief that everything evolves in order to thrive and survive, or for no reason whatsoever.

 

[HenryM]

If I am so moral, how does that jib with claim that there is none in an atheistic worldview?

Because God gives you some morality. God gives everybody some morality.

But it's not something to be proud of, because everybody falls short.

 

[HenryM]

The idea that people without belief in a god are moral voids whose only motivation is selfish hedonism and a love of mayhem is easily disproved throughout the long history of humanity upon this planet.

I would expect from Lutheran to understand, without me writing it to you, that God gives some morality to all people.

 

[Nithavela]

If you define "christian" as someone who doesn't kill and thus count everyone who says they are a christian and who murders an atheist, that's another case of a definition not everyone will have to follow.

As an aside, by forum rules it is against the rules to call someone a christian who says that he is a christian.

 

[Hieronymus]

Then it is truly ironic that in general he seems to give more to those who do not believe he exists!

He gives eternal life, a membership of God's family, to whosoever believes in Him.
But it's true that the non believers often have more worldly riches.
This prevents them from seeking Him, it prevents them to repent, because all is honky dory.
There's a Dutch saying: 'The devil always 'does his bowel movement' on the same heap', usually referring to money.
Or this saying: 'Bad people always fare well'.
(Old sayings from when the Netherlands was a protestant Christian culture).

It is almost like non stamp collectors being given more stamps.

And so it is written that the Christian has his treasures in heaven, not on earth.

 

[Nithavela]

I'm not disputing that at all.
We all have this thing called 'conscience'.
But in the atheistic / naturalistic view this is evolved to benefit survival, whereas for a Christian this is a law given by God.

Conscience is a tricky subject. If it is really given by a single god, why do people have different things they feel guilty or not guilty about?

I'm not talking about things like murder or theft, but things that some people feel guilty when they do (so their conscience tells them it is a no-no) and some people who do the same things and don't feel anything.

For example, some people feel intense guilt because of watching inappropriate content, while for others it is no problem. Others may feel guilty for not giving a homeless man they see on the street a few coins, while others walk by without any second thought.

You might say that those who feel less guilt are somehow fallen or removed from god and thus don't hear his voice, but that wouldn't explain why some people feel a strong conscience about one thing and are heedless to another thing that many others are painfully aware of.

Generally, one can observe that a conscience follows someones cultural upbringing, both from their parents, peers, role models and society at large.

 

[Nithavela]

He gives eternal life, a membership of God's family, to whosoever believes in Him.
But it's true that the non believers often have more worldly riches.
This prevents them from seeking Him, it prevents them to repent, because all is honky dory.
There's a Dutch saying: 'The devil always 'does his bowel movement' on the same heap', usually referring to money.
Or this saying: 'Bad people always fare well'.
(Old sayings from when the Netherlands was a protestant Christian culture).And so it is written that the Christian has his treasures in heaven, not on earth.

Keith was talking about morality, not about worldy goods, so this reply makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Hieronymus]

If you define "christian" as someone who doesn't kill and thus count everyone who says they are a christian and who murders an atheist, that's another case of a definition not everyone will have to follow.

A Christian is someone who follows Christ, and we all know Christ taught "Love your neighbour" and "Turn the other cheek" and "bless your enemies" and to leave dealing with evil creatures up to God.
So it's not unclear how a Christian should behave.
Unfortunately Christianity (the institutionalized religion) throughout history has a track record written in blood.
That's one of the reasons i used to always dismiss Christianity, and why i believed the Bible was probably not trustworthy either.
It's a big controversy..

 

[Nithavela]

A Christian is someone who follows Christ, and we all know Christ taught "Love your neighbour" and "Turn the other cheek" and "bless your enemies" and to leave dealing with evil creatures up to God.
So it's not unclear how a Christian should behave.

And still you have christians preaching the prosperity gospel, killing members of other denominations and looking out for their own self-interest when push comes to shove.

And as someone outside of christianity, it looks like a giant, squabbling horde with different subgroups all claiming that their kind of christianity is the true one and that everyone else has it wrong.

So please excuse me if your word doesn't convince me anymore than the word of, lets say, the westboro baptist church.

 

[Hieronymus]

Keith was talking about morality, not about worldy goods, so this reply makes absolutely no sense.

O, sorry...
(it still makes sense though )
But i think Keith thinks of excesses, like the MSM likes to report on.
As a Christian myself, i know what the Christian moral values (laws actually) are, and the biggest law is that of Love (agape).
There is no higher moral than Love.
But it's true that we all fall short.
We're not holy by ourselves, which is why we need forgiveness and sanctification, a rebirth even, to be able to enter God's Kingdom.

 

[HenryM]

And still you have christians preaching the prosperity gospel, killing members of other denominations and looking out for their own self-interest when push comes to shove.

And as someone outside of christianity, it looks like a giant, squabbling horde with different subgroups all claiming that their kind of christianity is the true one and that everyone else has it wrong.

So please excuse me if your word doesn't convince me anymore than the word of, lets say, the westboro baptist church.

What's up with calling out such fringe group as Westboro baptist church whom basically all other Christian churches denounce?

When I researched Islam some time ago, I didn't base my opinion about it on what some islamic groups are doing, even main ones, but on what is written in Quran and Hadith.

But you have some method of finding fringe remarks to shoot. It makes it quite see-through that you have an agenda or an axe to grind.

 

[Hieronymus]

And still you have christians preaching the prosperity gospel, killing members of other denominations and looking out for their own self-interest when push comes to shove.

Maybe they think they're Christians and say they're Christians, but when you behave in an opposite way, and hold beliefs that are opposing Christian values and teachings, how much is claiming to be one worth?

And as someone outside of christianity, it looks like a giant, squabbling horde with different subgroups all claiming that their kind of christianity is the true one and that everyone else has it wrong.

Yeah, it does seem to be like that often, i agree...
But the common denominator is Jesus Christ and the Bible.
This means John 3:16 as a basis, repentance of our sins and sinful nature (turning from the 'flesh' and towards God) and the Great Commandments / Laws of Love (for God and for your fellow human beings).
I think we all agree on those base teachings.
But it's all a huge controversy...
False teachers and teachings have always been causing problems.
Christianity has been used as a means to gain and remain in power for those who have ambitions in that direction.

So please excuse me if your word doesn't convince me anymore than the word of, lets say, the westboro baptist church.

Bwrf.. That's your own choice and responsibility.

 

[Nithavela]

What's up with calling out such fringe group as Westboro baptist church whom basically all other Christian churches denounce?

When I researched Islam some time ago, I didn't base my opinion about it on what some islamic groups are doing, even main ones, but on what is written in Quran and Hadith.

But you have some method of finding fringe remarks to shoot. It makes it quite see-through that you have an agenda or an axe to grind.

Of course they denounce them, and they get denounced in return. Doesn't make it any easier for me to see who is righ (if anyone).

And before you continue with your arguments ad populum and against "fringe groups", you should remember Matthew 7:13.

 

[Paulos23]

@HenryM @Hieronymus

You both are making the same mistake. Telling an Atheist what they believe or think. I have gone around and around on this before with others on the forum. Not going to do it again right now.

When you are willing to listen, let me know. Until then I am not going to be told what I am by people that don't know me.

 

[HenryM]

And before you continue with your arguments ad populum and against "fringe groups"...

Right. I wrote: "When I researched Islam some time ago, I didn't base my opinion about it on what some islamic groups are doing, even main ones, but on what is written in Quran and Hadith."

 

[HenryM]

You both are making the same mistake. Telling an Atheist what they believe or think.

You yourself tell that you don't believe God exists. It is basic consequence of such belief that foundation of your worldview is nothingness and chance. Regardless of how much you contemplate about it.

Of course, you can be on the sidelines and have some other foundational belief, or variation of it, but since you didn't reveal it, I can assume that what is generally correct applies to you too.

There are people who call themselves Christians, for example, but who don't believe that God exists. It's almost crazy to think that it's possible, but I have read their testimonies. It's just a fact that there are all kinds of people in this world. But when someone tells they are a Christian, I don't wonder: "Wait, before I assume things about them, let me first check if they are not, by any chance, among professing Christians who don't believe that God exists."

 

[Nithavela]

You yourself tell that you don't believe God exists. It is basic consequence of such belief that foundation of your worldview is nothingness and chance. Regardless of how much you contemplate about it.

I think you are making the same mistake a lot of very devout christians are making. You base your worldview (understandably) on god, the teachings of your denomination and the bible and so on. So when you think about atheists, you remove your basis and are left with the vision of an empty abyss that is only filled with existential angst and "anything goes".

If you actually talked with atheists instead of telling them what they believe and that if they don't accept those believes, they are just in denial, you might find out that there's a bit more to it.

 

[HenryM]

...you might find out that there's a bit more to atheism

Of course there is more. Built upon a foundation of coming into existence from nothing, by chance, and returning back into nothingness.

 

[Nithavela]

Of course there is more. Built upon a foundation of coming into existence from nothing, by chance, and returning back into nothingness.

I fail to see how this is in any way a bad thing.