Atheism as a Faith: The (Hopefully) Final Debate

[hamashiachagape]

Not special pleading really...just something spiritual to try.

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Read the article and PM me when you're done.

 

[dlamberth]

Are we getting this yet?

Have I taken my eyes off of God...nope!!! Not in any way!

I need to go, sorry. Time to sleep. Thanks, I learned a lot tonight. God Bless.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Have I taken my eyes off of God...nope!!! Not in any way!

I need to go, sorry. Time to sleep. Thanks, I learned a lot tonight. God Bless.

You don't even know the true characteristics of God based off of your understanding. Everything is equally and validly true on your understanding. That is self refuting. Look up the law of noncontradiction.

 

[hamashiachagape]

This is why scholarship is important.

 

[dlamberth]

You don't even know the true characteristics of God based off of your understanding. Everything is equally and validly true on your understanding. That is self refuting. Look up the law of noncontradiction.

I see the true characteristics of God all around me. Everywhere I look I see God...and see His characteristics in live action and in real life within His own Creation as signed off by His own signature with His very own hand. So I don't know what your talking about. If to you God is self refuting, well so be it. Personally, I don't think He is.

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[dlamberth]

Refuting relativism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Also a dialogue here - A dialogue on relativism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

DLamberth, look at this. And also see this from Youtube. YouTube - Refuting Relativism

OK, so I read and watched all of these links. Interesting, but from my perspective, what's missing is God. You have all of these mental thoughts going on with out the actual background of looking at God as ones reality. So, like seem to want to do, your missing the meat of the matter.

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[hamashiachagape]

OK, so I read and watched all of these links. Interesting, but from my perspective, what's missing is God. You have all of these mental thoughts going on with out the actual background of looking at God as ones reality. So, like seem to want to do, your missing the meat of the matter.

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The logical principles of logic actually prove the existence of God. Think of it like that. Principles require a principle maker. So the utilizing of God's logical principles to get rid of self refuting arguments is in fact justifiable because God put them into place. Just as gravity is a principle set in place.

God is separate from finite and self refuting positions too. Otherwise, he would cease to be God, right? God is not the author of confusion. If it is true, it comes from God. God is in fact the absolute truth.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I see the true characteristics of God all around me. Everywhere I look I see God...and see His characteristics in live action and in real life within His own Creation as signed off by His own signature with His very own hand. So I don't know what your talking about. If to you God is self refuting, well so be it. Personally, I don't think He is.

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But this is Panentheism. That viewpoint of God is self refuting.

 

[dlamberth]

But this is Panentheism. That viewpoint of God is self refuting.

Why? How can God be self-refuting?

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[hamashiachagape]

Why? How can God be self-refuting?

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The true God can't. But the Theistic viewpoint of Panentheism can be self refuting. Remember the post about Dr. Phil Fernandes?

 

[xDenax]

The Muslims, Christians and Jews can not all be right at the same time in the same sense.

But we can all experience God.

 

[hamashiachagape]

But we can all experience God.

Only if we know who God is. God has an unchanging and static nature.

 

[dlamberth]

The logical principles of logic actually prove the existence of God.

And Logic principles are used in the same way to prove that God doesn't exist.

I'm sure that you have read the news where Hawking has used the logic of Physics to prove just that.

Think of it like that. Principles require a principle maker. So the utilizing of God's logical principles to get rid of self refuting arguments is in fact justifiable because God put them into place. Just as gravity is a principle set in place.

God is not "a" principle. Nor is He a concept to hold. People put those things in place, not God. God is Life!!!

I still don't see how God is self-refuting though.

Logic is man made, gravity is God Created...they are not the same at all.

God is separate from finite and self refuting positions too.

God is the ONLY Reality...the finite and infinite. Alpha/Omega. God is life itself!! Are you willing to refute that as well?

Otherwise, he would cease to be God, right? God is not the author of confusion. If it is true, it comes from God. God is in fact the absolute truth.

I completely agree that God is the absolute Truth. But your not going to find it in "logic" arguments.

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[xDenax]

Only if we know who God is. God has an unchanging and static nature.

Why is it you think you know God better than anyone else?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Why is it you think you know God better than anyone else?

Where has God revealed himself to mankind? The Quran? The Bible? They contradict themselves, so its one or the other.

 

[dlamberth]

Where has God revealed himself to mankind? The Quran? The Bible? They contradict themselves, so its one or the other.

Where God has revealed Himself to manking? In His own Creation signed off by how own hand. There we find that Love and Creation itself does not contradict itself.

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[hamashiachagape]

And Logic principles are used in the same way to prove that God doesn't exist.

It can't be done. Atheists don't have an explanation for this.

I'm sure that you have read the news where Hawking has used the logic of Physics to prove just that.

His problem is that the laws of Physics are A Posteriori, and not A Priori. IOW, its his Philosophical stance that is the problem.

God is not "a" principle. Nor is He a concept to hold. People put those things in place, not God. God is Life!!!

He is not experience either.

I still don't see how God is self-refuting though.

He isn't.

Logic is man made, gravity is God Created...they are not the same at all.

You are utilizing logic in your very claim. Prove logic is manmade. It is set up in an infinite manner, and man is finite. Logic was actually discovered by man, but given the infallibility of logic, and man's fallibility, there is a problem here. It has to be from God. Atheism can't explain this.

God is the ONLY Reality...the finite and infinite. Alpha/Omega. God is life itself!! Are you willing to refute that as well?

God is Truth. How you are defining reality is what is problematic.

I completely agree that God is the absolute Truth. But your not going to find it in "logic" arguments.

On the contrary, I have already shown you one. Also the Unmoved Mover argument by Thomas Aquinas, utilizing Cause and Effect. Cause and Effect is essentially the primary necessity for demonstrating that there is a God in the first place. That is a logical principle.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Where God has revealed Himself to manking? In His own Creation signed off by how own hand. There we find that Love and Creation itself does not contradict itself.

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How do you know this? Romans 1:20.

There are religious texts that contradict themselves that can add supporting information for the existence of God, but in the essential quality and totality of the true nature of God, this can only be found in the only book that does not self contradict. Thats the Bible.

 

[xDenax]

How do you know this? Romans 1:20.

There are religious texts that contradict themselves that can add supporting information for the existence of God, but in the essential quality and totality of the true nature of God, this can only be found in the only book that does not self contradict. Thats the Bible.

The Jew has Torah but I guess you've decided that doesn't count. At any rate, I think we can all feel God in some capacity. But can we know God? Eh, not really.

 

[hamashiachagape]

The Jew has Torah but I guess you've decided that doesn't count. At any rate, I think we can all feel God in some capacity. But can we know God? Eh, not really.

Torah also expresses God's true character. What you are advocating is Agnosticism. How can you know that we can't know God?