Atheism (3)

[Dave Ellis]

I think the entire argument is inane, not to mention sophomoric. From both sides!

The argument about the historicity of Jesus is sophomoric?

I'll grant you the arguments that were brought up over the last page or so were pretty ridiculous, but I wouldn't call it sophomoric to refute bad arguments.

 

[Buy Bologna]

but that verse is talking about the wicked results of evil doers.

Ya, by the wrath of the almighty lord. Again, read it in context. verse 19, 20.

Isaiah 9:19-20 NIV - By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the - Bible Gateway

A very loving god.

Its obvious tho your nothing but a bigot, in denial and very polemic.

I'll let the others waste their posts on you.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think the entire argument is inane, not to mention sophomoric. From both sides!

Except for your expert judgment, I suppose.

We don't have any professional Bible scholars here, so we are all "half-wise" sophomores here. There's no escaping that. All we can do is reason as best as we can about the issues.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[TScott]

Except for your expert judgment, I suppose.

We don't have any professional Bible scholars here, so we are all "half-wise" sophomores here. There's no escaping that. All we can do is reason as best as we can about the issues.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I'm no expert, in fact when it comes to biblical scholarship I'm probably more like a sophomore, however that is not what the term sophomoric implies. When the conversation degrades to the point this one has fallen to in the last few pages, calling it sophomoric is being charitable. There is no reason. Grady isn't addressing your sides arguments and your side is responding with name calling and personal attacks.

It's difficult to find actual evidence for the existence of many figures in the ancient world. Look at Socrates for example. Most scholars agree that there was such a person, yet the only writings we have of him are the Gonzo type journals of Plato where he is the vehicle for Platos own philosophy.

With Jesus it is even more of a challenge because he was from a very obscure area and the only evidence we have of his existence were written long after his death based on oral tradition. there is nothing that we have found that can be called a contemporary record of his existence, however the consensus among scholars is that there was a real person behind all of this. There are few scholars who believe that Jesus was made up completely, Frike and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries come to mind but they are outliers and their arguments, in my opinion, aren't compelling.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It's difficult to find actual evidence for the existence of many figures in the ancient world. Look at Socrates for example. Most scholars agree that there was such a person, yet the only writings we have of him are the Gonzo type journals of Plato where he is the vehicle for Platos own philosophy.

Yes, so? I'll admit that I don't know for certain that Socrates wasn't merely Plato's sockpuppet. Socrates might not have existed.

So, why am I obligated to believe that Jesus existed?

With Jesus it is even more of a challenge because he was from a very obscure area and the only evidence we have of his existence were written long after his death based on oral tradition. there is nothing that we have found that can be called a contemporary record of his existence, however the consensus among scholars is that there was a real person behind all of this.

Yes, I realize that. However, all that we can do is consider their arguments to see if they make sense to us. We don't need to take them on faith.

There are few scholars who believe that Jesus was made up completely, Frike and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries come to mind but they are outliers and their arguments, in my opinion, aren't compelling.

Yes, most of those Jesus myth theories are pretty bad. I'm in agreement with you there.

However, a few aren't so bad. I find one quite compelling, though I will grant that I'm not a Bible scholar and so I can't evaluate the argument with that level of expertise.

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

However, even if no Jesus myth arguments happened to be well-crafted, that doesn't make Jesus historicism any more compelling or supported.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[createdtoworship]

Ya, by the wrath of the almighty lord. Again, read it in context. verse 19, 20.

Isaiah 9:19-20 NIV - By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the - Bible Gateway

A very loving god.

Its obvious tho your nothing but a bigot, in denial and very polemic.

I'll let the others waste their posts on you.

here is a seminary level commentary on it....

A description of wickedness (9:18-21)

9:18-21. The people’s wickedness (cf. v. 17) is pictured as burning them up like a huge fire with a large column of smoke. The judgment would come not only from God (v. 11) and from enemies of the nation (v. 12), but also from within. The nation would destroy itself by its own wicked deeds. People would oppose each other (v. 19), devour each other (v. 20), and even entire tribes will be in conflict (v. 21). On the refrain in verse 21b see comments on verse 12.


Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:1054). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

 

[createdtoworship]

You're saying there are no historical writings that talk of Gods that other cultures worshiped?

You're serious?

You must be trolling.... you can't honestly be arguing points like this, it's simply flat out laughably wrong.

prove it

 

[createdtoworship]

Are you purposefully trolling now? I can't believe this is a serious argument.

serious as can be ( I don't troll)

 

[createdtoworship]

Unless you can provide the eyewitness accounts of these people, I dismiss it out of hand.

Paul claiming that 500 people saw it, is not the same as 500 people actually seeing it. You have one account (Paul's), not 500 accounts. And even Paul's account is not an eyewitness account... we don't even know if Paul existed!

And yes, I am dismissing it as mere legend as a result.





The gospels have been proven to have been written by people who could not have possibly been eyewitnesses to Jesus. They are simply not eyewitness accounts.

your opinion against, oh so many.

 

[createdtoworship]

AND insulting someone is just poisoning the well fallacy.

 

[TScott]

So, why am I obligated to believe that Jesus existed?

I don't know why you are asking this question. Is it just a rhetorical question? Or do you somehow actually feel obligated?

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't know why you are asking this question. Is it just a rhetorical question? Or do you somehow actually feel obligated?

It sounded to me like you think that if the scholars come to a consensus on the issue (for instance, concluding a historical Jesus), I am obligated to conclude the same. I may have misunderstood you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[trientje]

This is for all the atheists on this blog. Looks like you are going to get your desire fulfilled to make America a Godless nation. Below is just one article I have read about people who don't believe in God. I expect the number of nonbelievers to increase in this country because it is foretold in the bible. To all the Christians on this site, "hang on there's no where to go but up"!


Survey finds 19% without religious affiliation – USATODAY.com

 

[trientje]

What? This whole section is nonsensical.

First off, what census?

Secondly, just because they knew who the emperor was proves nothing! If I said space aliens invaded the planet in 1919 and we fought them off after a long struggle, and Woodrow Wilson was president of the United States at the time.... does that make my story remotely true?

Thirdly, drop the "died for a lie" bit, I've already explained to you we have no idea who wrote the gospels, so we don't know how those people died. It's very possible they died of natural causes as old men.

Seeing we Christians are not, in your opinion, doing a satisfactory job trying to explain that Jesus did live, that he was and is our Messiah, and that the gospels are true then I need for you to tell me and prove to me that there wasn't a Jesus, that the gospels are fairy tales, prove it to me. But I would like you to use the bible to prove it. Surely you can find enough discrepencies and false and erroneous stuff in the bible to prove it is just not a book that stands on its own merits. The discussions we all have been having are proving to go nowhere. If we, all of us, just use one book. If you atheists are truly here to learn and discuss scripture and not here just to put down everything a Christian says then you should be up to the challenge.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This is for all the atheists on this blog. Looks like you are going to get your desire fulfilled to make America a Godless nation.

I seriously doubt that this will happen, even with the rising number of young people without religious affiliation.

Below is just one article I have read about people who don't believe in God. I expect the number of nonbelievers to increase in this country because it is foretold in the bible.

It isn't foretold when that will happen, so even if one accepts Biblical prophesy, the numbers could just as easily go to near 100% Christian for thousands of years.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dave Ellis]

I'm no expert, in fact when it comes to biblical scholarship I'm probably more like a sophomore, however that is not what the term sophomoric implies. When the conversation degrades to the point this one has fallen to in the last few pages, calling it sophomoric is being charitable. There is no reason. Grady isn't addressing your sides arguments and your side is responding with name calling and personal attacks.

It's difficult to find actual evidence for the existence of many figures in the ancient world. Look at Socrates for example. Most scholars agree that there was such a person, yet the only writings we have of him are the Gonzo type journals of Plato where he is the vehicle for Platos own philosophy.

With Jesus it is even more of a challenge because he was from a very obscure area and the only evidence we have of his existence were written long after his death based on oral tradition. there is nothing that we have found that can be called a contemporary record of his existence, however the consensus among scholars is that there was a real person behind all of this. There are few scholars who believe that Jesus was made up completely, Frike and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries come to mind but they are outliers and their arguments, in my opinion, aren't compelling.

Yes, however if the Jesus story is true, that means he was identified at birth as the messiah by the three wise men.

Don't you think that if he was identified as the messiah, that the Jewish authorities would have a number of people chronicling everything he said, and everything about him? If he was genuinely carrying out miracles as well, it's also very likely the Roman records would indicate this as well.

In this case, the absence of evidence, is evidence for absence. It's absurd to think nobody would write anything down at all during the lifetime of the messiah. The total lack of any contemporary writings sheds severe doubt on the reliability of the story.

 

[Dave Ellis]

prove it

In the very letter you originally posted by Pliny the Younger, he refers to the Roman Gods.

That must obviously mean they exist too, by your logic.

 

[Dave Ellis]

your opinion against, oh so many.

What part are you referring to?

And I notice you haven't given an actual rebuttal... just an argument from popularity fallacy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

AND insulting someone is just poisoning the well fallacy.

How many times do I have to explain the poisoning the well fallacy to you?

To address your post... No, it's not.

Please refer to any one of my many posts about this particular fallacy to find out why it isn't. I'm getting sick of repeating myself when you throw out fallacy accusations when none exist.

 

[Dave Ellis]

This is for all the atheists on this blog. Looks like you are going to get your desire fulfilled to make America a Godless nation. Below is just one article I have read about people who don't believe in God. I expect the number of nonbelievers to increase in this country because it is foretold in the bible. To all the Christians on this site, "hang on there's no where to go but up"!


Survey finds 19% without religious affiliation – USATODAY.com

That's encouraging news! Hopefully the trend will continue.

By the way, I don't have a desire to see a "godless" nation. I have a desire for religious freedom, and continuing to allow anyone to believe in whatever religion, or God they want to.

I hope they abandon their religious beliefs through research and rational thought. I do not support the government pushing any kind of religious, or anti-religious agenda. The government should stay religiously neutral, and completely out of the religious matters.