At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[sunshineforJesus]

Because you accepted him, or because he saved you? Tell me where in the bible it talks about "accepting" him as savior. Receive, yes, but accept?? Do you really think we have the integrity in and of ourselves that our decision merits such a thing?

Accepting means receiving doesnt it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by HEARING< and HEARING By the Word of God. FAITH in invariably the result of God revealing His intentions by means of the Holy Spirit.

You have this part correct. Faith is the gift, the work of God created in us by the Holy Spirit through the Means He has established. That through the word the Holy Spirit gives us faith.

CONVICTION OF SIN is the initial revelation, and the beginning of FAITH, when one repents and surrenders to God.

"This office [of the Law] the New Testament retains and urges, as St. Paul, Rom. 1:18 does, saying: The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Again, Rom 3:19: All the world is guilty before God. No man is righteous before Him. And Christ says, John 16:8: The Holy Ghost will reprove the world of sin.

This, then, is the thunderbolt of God by which He strikes in a heap [hurls to the ground] both manifest sinners and false saints [hypocrites], and suffers no one to be in the right [declares no one righteous], but drives them all together to terror and despair. This is the hammer, as Jeremiah 23:29 says: Is not My Word like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? This is not activa contritio or manufactured repentance, but passiva contritio [torture of conscience], true sorrow of heart, suffering and sensation of death.

This, then, is what it means to begin true repentance; and here man must hear such a sentence as this: You are all of no account, whether you be manifest sinners or saints [in your own opinion]; you all must become different and do otherwise than you now are and are doing [no matter what sort of people you are], whether you are as great, wise, powerful, and holy as you may. Here no one is [righteous, holy], godly, etc." - Smalcald Articles, Article III, 1-3

Conviction of sin is by the Law. The Law condemns, and brings knowledge of sin. But this isn't where faith comes from, faith comes not from the Law, but from the Gospel. Repentance and surrender to God is integral to the Christian life, in the struggle against the old man. We must daily mortify our flesh through repentance, drowning the old Adam. But these are the responses of man to God in light of sin and the demands of God's commandments.

But faith and consolation come from the Gospel,

Luther continues,

"But whenever the Law alone, without the Gospel being added exercises this its office there is [nothing else than] death and hell, and man must despair, like Saul and Judas; as St. Paul, Rom. 7:10, says: Through sin the Law killeth.

On the other hand, the Gospel brings consolation and remission not only in one way, but through the word and Sacraments, and the like, as we shall hear afterward in order that [thus] there is with the Lord plenteous redemption, as Ps. 130:7 says against the dreadful captivity of sin." - ibid. 7-8

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Accepting means receiving doesnt it.

There are two kinds of reception, active and passive.

Does an infant who is born accept the gift of life, or receive the gift of life passively?

Do we receive salvation actively by our own efforts and works, or do we receive salvation passively, entirely by the grace of God?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" - Romans 10:14

How can a person call upon the Lord Jesus and believe upon Him in their heart, and confess Him without faith?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dave L]

They didn’t condemn all of Pelagian’s teachings. They never rejected Pelagian’s idea that God’s punishment on those who reject Him would be unjust if they were not capable of repentance.

They condemned Pelagius for his rejection of total depravity, i.e, his teaching of free will.

 

[Dave L]

Brother there’s nothing there that suggests he repented or was saved. It certainly is possible but inconclusive.

I think it is obvious. Especially when scripture says it is impossible for the saved to perish. They have eternal life (always saved in God's plan).

 

[Dave L]

Hm, at least God offers forgiveness of sins to everyone.

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:

‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’
— Acts 13:38-41

It is limited to believers. How can it apply to unbelievers?

 

[Dave L]

How do you reconcile the concept of a God who is the very embodiment of both justice and love to a god who will specifically create billions upon billions of souls for the SOLE PURPOSE of condemning them to an eternity of suffering? Do you truly believe it is justice by ANY definition to create a life for the purpose of everlasting torture? How do you even justify such a horrendous belief? It's abusive.

That's not the gospel. That's not GOOD news. That's not the character of a just, loving, and merciful God who seeks to restore creation, who so loved the WORLD that he would do anything, even suffer and experience the consequences of sin, to demonstrate just how much love he has for the salvation of all people.

His love is for all. His grace is for all. Over and over he reaches out his hand and hopes with all his heart that we choose to take it.

Are you are redesigning God to your standards? If so, it is idolatry.

 

[coffee4u]

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" - Romans 10:14

How can a person call upon the Lord Jesus and believe upon Him in their heart, and confess Him without faith?

-CryptoLutheran

Given that believing in your heart is faith I don't understand your question.

I have not read this thread- at all, so I have no context for your question. I was simply answering the OP's title question.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Given that believing in your heart is faith I don't understand your question.

I have not read this thread- at all, so I have no context for your question. I was simply answering the OP's title question.

My question is how does one go from not believing to believing. How does a person get faith?

Is faith an innate property of man, and thus faith is a work of man being exercised to attain salvation, i.e. a directing of one's efforts, energies, works, thoughts, etc.

Or is faith a gift that is given to us from God, apart from ourselves?

The Protestant Reformers argued the second, that faith is a gift, and specifically that gift comes to us by God's word, as St. Paul will say in Romans 10:17, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ". Thus the word of God is effficacious, and through which the Holy Spirit gives us faith. And thus when Paul says "Whoever call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" he is not saying that salvation is conditional on the work to "call on the name of the Lord" but that the regenerated man, in faith, calls on the name of the Lord. It is from faith that we call upon and confess Christ our Lord.

The work is God's, to regenerate man by giving him faith.
It is not the work of man to meet certain conditions and overcome certain obstacles to attain salvation.

Sola Fide is the teaching that faith alone justifies not because faith is a thing I do to attain my own righteousness before God, but that it is the thing God gives me through which He imputes Christ's righteousness. Thus I, a sinner, am the passive recipient of God's saving work. My sins are forgiven because Christ suffered, bled, died, and rose again, and what He has done is mine because God gifts me His work, His righteousness.

It is a fundamental question of soteriology: Is our justification the work of God alone, or is it a joint effort between God and man working together?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's not the definition of "the gospel" you were using in post #254.

BNR32FAN said: ↑
He said if you stand firmly in the faith of the gospel not if you are faithful enough to God. Standing firmly in the faith of the gospel means your trusting in the gospel not that you are being faithful to God that’s a whole different situation. You either believe and trust the gospel or you don’t. There’s no believing and trusting the gospel a little bit or believing and trusting a lot. It’s an either or situation. You either believe all of it or you don’t. How can someone have a little faith in the gospel without failing to believe all of it?

Yes it is the same definition. Why do you think I’m describing a different definition here? How does this mean something different than the good news of Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

They condemned Pelagius for his rejection of total depravity, i.e, his teaching of free will.

One thing you’ll notice from their canons is that they never imply that all are guilty of Adam’s sin. Only his sinful nature was passed on not the guilt of his sin.

 

[Dave L]

One thing you’ll notice from their canons is that they never imply that all are guilty of Adam’s sin. Only his sinful nature was passed on not the guilt of his sin.

I think it ends in the same place. Scripture however imputes guilt to all.

 

[zoidar]

It is limited to believers. How can it apply to unbelievers?

The offer was in this instance made to "unbelievers". Do you disagree?

 

[Dave L]

The offer was in this instance made to "unbelievers". Do you disagree?

The gospel was announced (Greek = Preached). It was never a job offer for the self-righteous.

 

[zoidar]

The gospel was announced (Greek = Preached). It was never a job offer for the self-righteous.

It says forgiveness of sins was announced to the unbelievers, right?

I think most Calvinists would agree with this as well.

 

[Dave L]

It says forgiveness of sins was announced to the unbelievers, right?

The gospel was announced to many. But only the born again (saved) could grasp it. The rest turned it into law.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Accepting means receiving doesnt it.

Then why doesn't the Bible use the term, "accept him", for "receive him"?

Because they are not the same thing. To receive him implies the notion of a Receptacle, into which something is placed, to wit, the Holy Spirit. To accept him implies the notion of him standing there waiting for you to make the decision.

Salvation is not accomplished by accepting an offer, but by receiving the Holy Spirit, i.e. regeneration, God Himself taking up residence in you.

 

[zoidar]

The gospel was announced to many. But only the born again (saved) could grasp it. The rest turned it into law.

Of course you are not born again until you have grasped and received the gospel. But I'm sure you think we are born again before we grasp the gospel. Anyhow, have a good day Dave!

Christ love!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course you are not born again until you have grasped and received the gospel. But I'm sure you think we are born again before we grasp the gospel. Anyhow, have a good day Dave!

Christ love!

None of us has the intellectual capacity to "grasp the Gospel", nor the integrity of heart, nor the urgency of emotion, etc etc. Only God has that. Which is why we cannot receive it until we have received the Holy Spirit, in regeneration, not to mention that to grasp it is impossible for the dead to do. This is the work of God, not of man.