At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread (2) - Please Vote in Poll Thread

[A New Dawn]

Might you have any suggestions how someone might observe the processes at work here where one group is saying they're worthy of positions of control over the other group and at the same time, telling the other group that they're not worthy of the same kinds of positions and not see it as us-verses-them?

When Erwin takes the word "Christian" out of the name of the board, then I would feel comfortable with non-Christians in leadership positions. Until then, it is appropriate that leadership on a Christian site be Christians. Why do you feel it is within your perogative to come and tell the owner how the site should be run? If you start a board with a specific vision, how amenable would you be to change the vision to that of someone diametrically opposed to you?

 

[Lindon Tinuviel]

Why do you feel it is within your perogative to come and tell the owner how the site should be run? If you start a board with a specific vision, how amenable would you be to change the vision to that of someone diametrically opposed to you?

Ummm... maybe because the site owner asked?

 

[MarcusHill]

Moderator =/= leader

 

[Lindon Tinuviel]

Really. Leadership?

 

[Beastt]

This whole thread is getting assinine. IS anyone reading what is actually written? NO. NO one has said throw anyone out or anything else remotely close. That is WAY assinine. NO one said NOT to reach out to the unsaved. WHY don't people start reading what is written instead of ASSUMING what is being said. MIGHT get a bit further ahead,

If anyone's idea of reaching out is to stuff someone into the basement, feed them your table scraps and slap them down everytime they point out an inconsistency in what you're telling them, then perhaps we have a clue as to why the outreach program here has been such a complete failure.

 

[A New Dawn]

If anyone's idea of reaching out is to stuff someone into the basement, feed them your table scraps and slap them down everytime they point out an inconsistency in what you're telling them, then perhaps we have a clue as to why the outreach program here has been such a complete failure.

Can you please copy me more than two posts that have suggested that? Thanks.

 

[HadessahRose]

If anyone's idea of reaching out is to stuff someone into the basement, feed them your table scraps and slap them down everytime they point out an inconsistency in what you're telling them, then perhaps we have a clue as to why the outreach program here has been such a complete failure.

are you even in this reality? WHERE are you getting your 'stuff' from? I have not read one thing.I don't think you are reading, you want to think the worst so you are...have at it. But I am not going to play your game.

 

[gengwall]

Sorry - didn't see mod hats from page 1

 

[Timothy]

Can you please copy me more than two posts that have suggested that? Thanks.

 

[warrrior4him007]

oka i am for gods vision he sent his son jesus to be a living sacrfice JESUS TAUGHT his deciples GO into THE WORLD of sin i agree with erwin
we all need to shut up and pray stop bringing in strife start witnessing to ppl that are not christians we teach the love that god has for us all and we DO THAT BY LOVING EVERY ONE we also need to be wise about the decisions we make

 

[MeekOne]

When Erwin takes the word "Christian" out of the name of the board, then I would feel comfortable with non-Christians in leadership positions. Until then, it is appropriate that leadership on a Christian site be Christians. Why do you feel it is within your perogative to come and tell the owner how the site should be run? If you start a board with a specific vision, how amenable would you be to change the vision to that of someone diametrically opposed to you?

Here...here!

 

[lyonguard]

I vote #2.

 

[Beastt]

When Erwin takes the word "Christian" out of the name of the board, then I would feel comfortable with non-Christians in leadership positions. Until then, it is appropriate that leadership on a Christian site be Christians. Why do you feel it is within your perogative to come and tell the owner how the site should be run? If you start a board with a specific vision, how amenable would you be to change the vision to that of someone diametrically opposed to you?

And yet you should feel just the opposite. Take a moment and look at these two lists of values;

LIST ONE

• Selfishness
• Prejudice
• Bias
• Stinginess
• Elitism
• Inequality
• Injustice

LIST TWO

• Equal Sharing
• Caring
• Generosity
• Selflessness
• Friendship
• Equality
• Love
• Justice

It all comes down to which list you think is the best reflection of Christian values. If you think the first list properly reflects your values as a Christian, then the name should remain "Christian Forums" and the unequal, unfair treatment shown to nonChristians should continue.

If you think the second list more properly reflects Christian values, then there is no way to justify continuing to treat nonChristians as they've been treated and still retain a name for the site which suggests anyone will find Christian values actually practiced here. I've been here for a little over 3-years and during that time I've continually heard Christians preaching the second list of values. But everytime they're actually called to demonstrate their values, I see conclusive demonstrations of the first list instead.

This really comes as no great surprise to me because it's always been obvious that to the majority, "Christian values" are just a lot of talk. Ask most to show you their Christian values and you get the first list, not the second.

And yet I'm told these are the very people within whom God dwells. Just like all the rest, it's just a lot of talk. It means nothing even to many of those who talk about it constantly.

Atheist "Why do you think you're better or more worthy of your God's generosity than I?"

Christian "Because I believe in God's salvation and I'm learning the values the Holy Spirit is helping me to hold as my personal values. I accept the loving gift Jesus gave me on the cross and I seek to be more like him."

Atheist :What are the values the Holy Spirit is teaching you that would make you more like Jesus?"

Christian "God teaches us about pure love, that we need to always love our fellow man as ourselves and to be ready and willing to give of ourselves to help others and demonstrate to them that God's love is the way of truth."

Atheist "Then would you be willing to share your website with others as equals?"

Christian "Are you out of your ever-lovin' mind!?!? This is a CHRISTIAN site! I'm not sharing anything with you!! Go away if you don't like it. You'll take what little I offer you, be it cruelty and inequality or a token spot in the corner and like it! Crazy non-Christian!!! Who do you think you are asking a Christian to treat you as an equal?!?"

(chorus) Amen, brother
​

 

[MeekOne]

And yet you should feel just the opposite. Take a moment and look at these two lists of values;


LIST ONE

• Selfishness
• Prejudice
• Bias
• Stinginess
• Elitism
• Inequality
• Injustice

LIST TWO

• Equal Sharing
• Caring
• Generosity
• Selflessness
• Friendship
• Equality
• Love
• Justice

It all comes down to which list you think is the best reflection of Christian values. If you think the first list properly reflects your values as a Christian, then the name should remain "Christian Forums" and the unequal, unfair treatment shown to nonChristians should continue.

If you think the second list more properly reflects Christian values, then there is no way to justify continuing to treat nonChristians as they've been treated and still retain a name for the site which suggests anyone will find Christian values actually practiced here. I've been here for a little over 3-years and during that time I've continually heard Christians preaching the second list of values. But everytime they're actually called to demonstrate their values, I see conclusive demonstrations of the first list instead.

This really comes as no great surprise to me because it's always been obvious that to the majority, "Christian values" are just a lot of talk. Ask most to show you their Christian values and you get the first list, not the second.

And yet I'm told these are the very people within whom God dwells. Just like all the rest, it's just a lot of talk. It means nothing even to many of those who talk about it constantly.

Atheist Why do you think you're better or more worthy of your God's generosity than I?

Christian Because I believe in God's salvation and I'm learning the values the Holy Spirit is helping me to hold as my personal values.

Atheist What are those values?

Christian God teaches us about pure love, that we need to always love our fellow man as ourselves and to be ready and willing to give of ourselves to help others and demonstrate to them that God's love is the way of truth.

Atheist Then would you be willing to share your website with others as equals?

Christian Are you out of your ever-lovin' mind!?!? This is a CHRISTIAN site! I'm not sharing anything with you!! Go away if you don't like it. You'll take what little I offer you, be it cruelty and inequality or a token spot in the corner and like it! Crazy non-Christian!!! Who do you think you are asking a Christian to treat you as an equal?!?

Its all in the way you see it though and where you are coming from. This is not the way true Christians think. If you believe in:

LIST TWO

• Equal Sharing
• Caring
• Generosity
• Selflessness
• Friendship
• Equality
• Love
• Justice

then why aren't you accepting of Christ? He is all about these virtues. You must understand that to us, that doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense. Why would you reject His gifts?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Erwin Webmaster. I vote for option 1, because outreach is helping the Lord in His Work. Jesus died for all, and all should have a good chance to make up their own minds. May I point out however, General Apologetics seem to me a very apt name, why the change??? Kind greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

To Erwin:

How about this. Instead of polling us asking if we should take the board back to the old structure, we give the new one a FIGHTING CHANCE?


Take the old DR as an example (ok, maybe a bad example...but still). It was scrapped after how long after it was restructured? It was declared a failure but wasn't really tested in any meaningful way.

Don't let indecision rule you. Give this new structure a chance to work. Set some guidelines for success!!! Timelines, progress reports...the works.

We need a shot in the arm, not yet another amputation.

 

[Timothy]

Let me fix your dialogue so it's accurate and not a complete misrepsentation and emotional appeal.

Atheist "Then would you be willing to share your website with others as equals?"

Christian "Why look, brother, we have almost the entire site opened up to non-Christians as equal members. We have the fellowship area, the Debate area... the only areas that were ever specifically for Christians were the Christian-specific Theology areas, and the Christian-specific Congregational fora, and I don't really understand why a non-Christian would want to go in those..."
​

 

[Blackness]

If Christians are the only ones aloud to lead, what ever, but this is about kicking all non-Christians out.

 

[Beastt]

Its all in the way you see it though and where you are coming from. This is not the way true Christians think. If you believe in:

LIST TWO

• Equal Sharing
• Caring
• Generosity
• Selflessness
• Friendship
• Equality
• Love
• Justice

then why aren't you accepting of Christ? He is all about these virtues. You must understand that to us, that doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense. Why would you reject His gifts?

I am accepting of these virtues. What Christians here are openly demonstrating is that the majority of them aren't.

I find no reason to believe that Jesus was other than a pretty neat guy, with a few faults like all of the rest of us, but with a generally good set of personal values. Of course all of that relies on the questionable idea that he actually existed as a man. There is sufficient evidence to the contrary to suggest that the character of Jesus was based on one man, but actually the conglomeration of a number of pagan myths, the personal agenda's of those who wrote about him and one or more actual people.

Accepting the virtues Jesus has said to have taught is a far cry from accepting a rather incredible story about him being some kind of god. I see no more reason to accept that Jesus was a god (or the God), than to accept the same of David Koresh. Both made the claim and both accrued very faithful followers. Both died in ways that might be seen as prophetic or sacrificial.

The problem isn't whether or not I accept the virtues of such values, but the fact that Christians, while continuing to present themselves as holders of such values, continue to demonstrate that their personal values are far more reflective of the first list.

As Gandhi indicated, I like your Christ. But I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

He nailed it. Most of the non-Christians I've met come far closer to holding the second set of values than do most of the Christians. And they do so without accepting Jesus as any kind of savior, and without the supposed entity of the Holy Spirit within them to guide them.

In selecting the title for this series of threads, Erwin may have been revealing far more than he ever intended because Christians are now at a crossroads. For years we've been hearing them preach about their love, kindness and generosity. Now comes the opportunity to actually demonstrate it -- to walk the walk -- and what we find is that many can't even conceive of the notion.

You're busted and exposed.

 

[MeekOne]

I am accepting of these virtues. What Christians here are openly demonstrating is that the majority of them aren't.

I find no reason to believe that Jesus was other than a pretty neat guy, with a few faults like all of the rest of us, but with a generally good set of personal values. Of course all of that relies on the questionable idea that he actually existed as a man. There is sufficient evidence to the contrary to suggest that the character of Jesus was based on one man, but actually the conglomeration of a number of pagan myths, the personal agenda's of those who wrote about him and one or more actual people.

Accepting the virtues Jesus has said to have taught is a far cry from accepting a rather incredible story about him being some kind of god. I see no more reason to accept that Jesus was a god (or the God), than to accept the same of David Koresh. Both made the claim and both accrued very faithful followers. Both died in ways that might be seen as prophetic or sacrificial.

The problem isn't whether or not I accept the virtues of such values, but the fact that Christians, while continuing to present themselves as holders of such values, continue to demonstrate that their personal values are far more reflective of the first list.

As Gandhi indicated, I like your Christ. But I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

He nailed it. Most of the non-Christians I've met come far closer to holding the second set of values than do most of the Christians. And they do so without accepting Jesus as any kind of savior, and without the supposed entity of the Holy Spirit within them to guide them.

Again, it is all in the way that you see it. Not all Christians are as you portray they are. Just by your response, it is clear that you are confused as to Who Jesus really is. If a forum claims to be Christian, it cannot be in name alone. If it is a Christian forum, then it must be run by Christians. Otherwise, we would have people in power who think of Jesus just as you do, and it would be no different than any other fly by night site out there. That is not what us as Christians came here for. It is time to stand up for this forum. The time is now, and that is why we are so passionate about it. It is totally not that we want to push non-believers out. Quite the contrary. We are commissioned to reach folks like yourself, and wouldn't be true Christians if we didn't invite you in. However, putting non-believers in charge is a major mistake for this forum. Sharing the place is one thing, surrendering it is quite a different story all together.

In selecting the title for this series of threads, Erwin may have been revealing far more than he ever intended because Christians are now at a crossroads. For years we've been hearing them preach about their love, kindness and generosity. Now comes the opportunity to actually demonstrate it -- to walk the walk -- and what we find is that many can't even conceive of the notion.

You are clearly upset here and not seeing it as it really is. Maybe you should step back and look at it without all the emotion.

You're busted and exposed.

Exposed as true Christians I believe. Jesus protected the church too.