Asteroid Strike

[Ophiolite]

Unless I’m missing something, that’s the typical definition of species - if two animals are capable of interbreeding, they’re the same species.

No. Lions and tigers, for example can interbreed. A better definite of species is a population of animals that routinely interbreed and are isolated through geography, or behaviour from any similar species.

 

[Resha Caner]

So ... just curious ... who in this thread actually read the article?

 

[Yttrium]

So ... just curious ... who in this thread actually read the article?

I did. It's very long...

It sounds like there could have been two major extinction events going on at the same time: the asteroid and the volcanoes. That could make a good disaster movie.

 

[-57]

How are you able to exclude insects?

Insects don't have the breath of life. They breath through spiracles.

Why are you excluding spiders?

I'm not saying spiders weren't on the ark. I don't think they had to be on the ark.

What about land crabs?

I'll bite, what about them?

A few thousand species of land gastropods?

. Snails and slugs take up whole lot of room.

How did the salt water fish survive the inundation with fresh water? (Or the increased pressure from several kilometres of ocean?)

Many of them perished. Some would have found a stratified layer of saltwater. As to the increased pressure......they swam towards the surface.

 

[-57]

Unless I’m missing something, that’s the typical definition of species - if two animals are capable of interbreeding, they’re the same species.

Lions and tigers can interbreed. They are considered as separate species. Because they can interbreed it shows they are of the same biblical kind.

I’ve seen this asserted a few times, and I’ve never quite got the reasoning. Ignoring the salt water problems for fish for a moment, how are insects supposed to survive? They need air, too.

And while we’re on the subject, what about plants and fungi?

They survived hitching a ride on the large floating vegetation mats....which also answers your plant and fungi question.

 

[Resha Caner]

I did. It's very long...

It sounds like there could have been two major extinction events going on at the same time: the asteroid and the volcanoes. That could make a good disaster movie.

Hmm. I didn't think the article pointed toward the volcanoes as a cause of extinction - just as a driver of the tropical environment. Maybe I missed something.

But I think it did indicate the possibility that secondary effects triggered by the impact magnified the destruction. It seems, then, that victims of the various differing after-effects might have reported different experiences ... and may never have known about the initial trigger. It reminds me of a paper we read for my "history & memory" class regarding variations in reports about Allied bombing during WWII.

But more curious is how all the arguing seems to have little to do with the paper, and is instead a new playground for old grievances.

 

[Ophiolite]

So ... just curious ... who in this thread actually read the article?

I scanned most of it. I've been following the debate concerning the end Cretaceous extinction for half a century through the scientific literature. I had previously read the PNAS article referred to in your link. It was a good article for those unfamiliar with some of the details of the topic. I could certainly recommend it, but personally found it frustrating to invest the time yet learn nothing much new, except that de Palma is a bit of a prat, to the extent that he even qualifies absolutes. ("Very unique"! Really?) I appreciate you posting it though.

 

[Ophiolite]

Hmm. I didn't think the article pointed toward the volcanoes as a cause of extinction - just as a driver of the tropical environment. Maybe I missed something.

No, but the consensus view gives the Deccan Traps eruption a significant role in the extinction event.

But more curious is how all the arguing seems to have little to do with the paper, and is instead a new playground for old grievances.

It's the Physical and Life Sciences portion of Christian Forum's. What did you expect?

I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of the topic you wish. In fact I would be delighted.

 

[lasthero]

Lions and tigers can interbreed. They are considered as separate species. Because they can interbreed it shows they are of the same biblical kind.

So, for example, lions and tigers are of the same kind, but housecats and lions aren't?

They survived hitching a ride on the large floating vegetation mats....which also answers your plant and fungi question.

I've seen this asserted a few times with creationist literature, but I've never seen any actual evidence to support it.

What is a 'vegetation mat', for one thing? I can't find anything about them online - at least, not what you seem to be talking about in regards to a flood. I've certainly never heard of any such thing being made during a flood. How would these things alone be able to support life for the 900,000 insect life forms, all with different dietary needs and living requirements? Not to mention the nearly 400,000 plant species, and definitely not to mention the millions of fungal species?

 

[Yttrium]

Hmm. I didn't think the article pointed toward the volcanoes as a cause of extinction - just as a driver of the tropical environment. Maybe I missed something.

I was going off of this part:

"In 2010, forty-one researchers in many scientific disciplines announced, in a landmark Science article, that the issue should be considered settled: a huge asteroid impact caused the extinction. But opposition to the idea remains passionate. The main competing hypothesis is that the colossal “Deccan” volcanic eruptions, in what would become India, spewed enough sulfur and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to cause a climatic shift. The eruptions, which began before the KT impact and continued after it, were among the biggest in Earth’s history, lasting hundreds of thousands of years, and burying half a million square miles of the Earth’s surface a mile deep in lava. The three-metre gap below the KT layer, proponents argued, was evidence that the mass extinction was well under way by the time of the asteroid strike."

The volcanic eruptions were enough to make some think that they were responsible for wiping out the dinosaurs. Then you have the asteroid on top of that.

 

[Resha Caner]

It's the Physical and Life Sciences portion of Christian Forum's. What did you expect?

My expectations were quite low.

No, but the consensus view gives the Deccan Traps eruption a significant role in the extinction event.

Could the impact have played a role in their formation?

I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of the topic you wish. In fact I would be delighted.

The detail that caught my attention - something I had not considered before - was tsunamis triggered by the impact. What about the topic interests you so much?

 

[Resha Caner]

I was going off of this part:

"In 2010, forty-one researchers in many scientific disciplines announced, in a landmark Science article, that the issue should be considered settled: a huge asteroid impact caused the extinction. But opposition to the idea remains passionate. The main competing hypothesis is that the colossal “Deccan” volcanic eruptions, in what would become India, spewed enough sulfur and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to cause a climatic shift. The eruptions, which began before the KT impact and continued after it, were among the biggest in Earth’s history, lasting hundreds of thousands of years, and burying half a million square miles of the Earth’s surface a mile deep in lava. The three-metre gap below the KT layer, proponents argued, was evidence that the mass extinction was well under way by the time of the asteroid strike."

The volcanic eruptions were enough to make some think that they were responsible for wiping out the dinosaurs. Then you have the asteroid on top of that.

I see. Got it.

 

[-57]

So, for example, lions and tigers are of the same kind, but housecats and lions aren't?

If you could trace the ancestry of the lions and tigers they would go back to the original cat kind on the ark. The housecat and lion would also go back to the original cat kind that was on the ark.

I've seen this asserted a few times with creationist literature, but I've never seen any actual evidence to support it.

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

What is a 'vegetation mat', for one thing? I can't find anything about them online - at least, not what you seem to be talking about in regards to a flood. I've certainly never heard of any such thing being made during a flood. How would these things alone be able to support life for the 900,000 insect life forms, all with different dietary needs and living requirements? Not to mention the nearly 400,000 plant species, and definitely not to mention the millions of fungal species?

Post flood there wouldn't have been 900,000 insect life forms, 400,000 plant species or millions of fungal species. They would have speciated after the flood when the earth was restoring itself. As to what the post flood numbers were...I don't know.

Here's what one of the mats may have looked like.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Day the Dinosaurs Died

Didn't happen.

Else the Cocos Islands would be orbiting the Earth.

 

[lasthero]

If you could trace the ancestry of the lions and tigers they would go back to the original cat kind on the ark. The housecat and lion would also go back to the original cat kind that was on the ark.

So new kinds of animals can be made? There was once a single cat kind, and if evovled into other kinds, all in a span of a thousand years?

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

What do you have?

Post flood there wouldn't have been 900,000 insect life forms, 400,000 plant species or millions of fungal species. They would have speciated after the flood when the earth was restoring itself. As to what the post flood numbers were...I don't know.

That’s a lot of speciation in a short amount of time.

Here's what one of the mats may have looked like.

That’s just a bunch of dead wood in the middle of a lake. It doesn’t look like anything is living on it or even could, much less the large variety of life that would need to be on it in order to survive the flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

That’s just a bunch of dead wood in the middle of a lake. It doesn’t look like anything is living on it or even could, much less the large variety of life that would need to be on it in order to survive the flood.

I think we're just arguing minor issues when we argue about the Flood survivors, since God could have wiped everything off the Earth, including Noah and his family, and started all over.

Deuteronomy 9:13 Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Deuteronomy 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Notice the reference to the "blotting out" of their names?

God so "blotted out" the Earth, that scientists today can't identify a single trace of evidence for the Flood.

In fact, had God not documented it, we wouldn't know it happened.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You do know thats's not what the bible teaches? Take the time to understand what a "kind" is.

The word "kind" isn't found in the command to bring two of every living thing, it is added in translation, but the Hebrew simply says "Of all living things of all flesh you shall bring with you two into the ark". Now the term "kind" is used later, "Of the birds after their kind, of the animals after their kind" etc, the word miyn simply means "kind", or "sort", from a root verb meaning "to portion out".

If you have a better definition of "kind" that the Bible doesn't mention (and how you came about that knowledge) you are free to present it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, you have about 30,000 species.
Fish and insects were not required to be on the ark.

There are insects, arachnids, worms, and other land-dwelling invertibrates today, if they didn't need to be on the ark then how did they survive the flood?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[-57]

So new kinds of animals can be made? There was once a single cat kind, and if evovled into other kinds, all in a span of a thousand years?

i guess that would depend upon the amount variation in the gene pool and the heterozygosity. Add to that a rapidly changing environment...

What do you have?


What kind of evidence are you looking for?

That’s a lot of speciation in a short amount of time.

Sounds lke it. Do you have some sort odf speciation speed limit?

That’s just a bunch of dead wood in the middle of a lake. It doesn’t look like anything is living on it or even could, much less the large variety of life that would need to be on it in order to survive the flood.

I didn't know you could see insects from that distance.

 

[-57]

There are insects, arachnids, worms, and other land-dwelling invertibrates today, if they didn't need to be on the ark then how did they survive the flood?

-CryptoLutheran

Why wouldn't they survive the flood?