Asteroid Strike

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Moses?

God is certainly Master of time and space.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't physicists believe there are eleven dimensions of space?

Extra spatial dimensions are posited to exist on the quantum level (i.e. so small that only subatomic particles could enter them) but this is all highly theoretical.

As for Gene2Meme's Noah/Moses confusion, perhaps they were different regenerations ;)
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
[QUOTE="USincognito, post: 73993236, member: 21511"


We have found fragments of collagen that were preserved iron in the blood. Mary Schweitzer gets angry when Creationists try to hijack her findings.[/QUOTE]

Mary S isn't the only person(s) who have found biomaterial.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Where does it say that mt. Ararat was not under water?

Gen 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Pre-flood there was no mountains of Ararat. They were formed when the mountains rose up and the valleys sank.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Understanding this timeline allows for dinosaurs to have existed much more than six millennia ago. It is only when so-called Bible believers lock themselves into a 6,000-year-old world that they have trouble
with dinosaurs.

The dinosaurs were buried in the flood.
 
Upvote 0

lasthero

Newbie
Jul 30, 2013
11,421
5,793
✟229,457.00
Faith
Seeker
[QUOTE="USincognito, post: 73993236, member: 21511"


We have found fragments of collagen that were preserved iron in the blood. Mary Schweitzer gets angry when Creationists try to hijack her findings.

Mary S isn't the only person(s) who have found biomaterial.[/QUOTE]

Who else?
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here's the thing. Even when I was a practicing Christian (which I was until my very late 20s), Biblical literalism and creationism were anathemas to me. So even if I was a Christian still, almost nothing I wrote would be different (bar maybe some stuff in the final paragraph).

My education was highly religious, but at no point did any priest or lay person teaching me suggest that when the facts about reality and the Bible contradicted each other, it was reality that was wrong. My religious education (Marist and Jesuit, with a smattering of Church of England and Presbyterian teaching) and my scientific education simply didn't treat those concepts as legitimate.

It took me until my mid teens before I actually met anyone that espoused a view in line with young earth creationism. It took me even longer (and a trip to work as a teacher in the US) until I met anyone who was a proper Biblical literalist.

I feel that even if I was (still) a believer, you and I would fundamentally disagree about the facts of reality. So it doesn't matter whether I'm a believer or not. What matters is what can be demonstrated to be real.
I appreciate the reply. I do not believe everything within Scripture is literal. God is not a rock, or a fortress, and Jesus is not a lamb. These are metaphoric words used to describe aspects of their work or character. But I do believe there are a lot of very literal things and I take creation as one of them. I do, because, if there is a God... I mean an all-powerful beyond the pagan type "river god" or "lake god" or "sun god" then it stands to reason He has abilities beyond our ability to perceive. Could He speak something where nothing existed before? Admittedly that is a stretch for our limited very physical understanding of things around us. But, it is possible. Is there proof? No... there have been papers written that suggest all humanity began from a single pair of humans. Evidence in nearly every culture suggests a world wide flood. More and more archaeological finds, specifically in and around the land of Israel support the stories that are written. So I suggest that it is "possible" a being of great power and knowledge created the Earth as it is written. It would have been built with the appearance of age... Adam not a baby but a man... trees already bearing fruit for him to eat, and so forth. Things that science declares would take many millions of years to evolve... were just there when God said they needed to be there.

That is what I accept, Gene, as reality. And I do, perhaps to a fault, avoid aspects of science because I know those drawing conclusions and pushing the same on our culture arrived at those conclusions without weighing in whether or not God could have been involved in any way. That tells me they are NOT open to all possibilities and have an anti-divinity bias. As such... I simply do not consider their finding because their findings are just as narrow to me... as mine probably are to you. But, at least you know why I am this way and if we cross paths again... perhaps there can at least continue to be some mutual respect given toward each other.

Peace.
Ken
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Okay.

So what conditions, specifically, would’ve killed off the dinosaurs, along with other animals that lived alongside them? How did these conditions come about?
What conditions, specifically, killed off the Pyrenean Ibex, or the Carolina Parakeet, or any other now extinct animal I can list. Hunting? Environmental factors? Both? Something else? Animals die...

Here is my position... feel free to reject it. God created all life and through the fossil record, we know dinosaurs existed. Counting from Adam, we have been here 6000 years. If (IF) there is a young earth, then there has to be another explanation for the demise of the dino's. So... I simply tried to resolve that issue based on those potential facts I just shared. And my resolution was to conclude that the dinos were on the ark and that they came off and eventually died. Based on my belief in God and His word... that makes more sense to me than believing that the modern bird is yesterday's dinosaur. It lost it's reptilian skin, switched from being cold to warm blooded, and learned how to fly. :) I just won't go there... if you do, that is fine. I don't think any less of people for not agreeing with me. I only think less of people when they act childish toward others and don't show mutual respect ESPECIALLY when dealing with others who call Jesus Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I’m sorry.

Are you implying that all the cats we see today came from a pair of two?

Are you including housecats in this?
Again... the Hebrew language and thus the bible does not break things into the subspecies of animals that MAN has created. A cat is a cat, period. Do I believe in adaptation? Of course... and genetic modification? And selective breeding? Yes... these things happen. And so a cat that is smaller because of it's environment can be bred even smaller and domesticated.... that is all easy enough and it can happen over a relatively short period of time. But the point is... the bible does not break it down to subspecies... just the general species. So, Noach would have not had to carry as much as many think is too much for the story to be real.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yttrium

Independent Centrist
May 19, 2019
3,853
4,267
Pacific NW
✟242,386.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
And I do, perhaps to a fault, avoid aspects of science because I know those drawing conclusions and pushing the same on our culture arrived at those conclusions without weighing in whether or not God could have been involved in any way.

Science tries to find natural explanations for what we see in nature. That's science's job. It's the whole reason we have science. It doesn't matter what the religion (or lack thereof) of the scientist is. The scientist is obligated to use the scientific method. We have religion to cover the supernatural stuff, which science isn't capable of dealing with.
 
Upvote 0

lasthero

Newbie
Jul 30, 2013
11,421
5,793
✟229,457.00
Faith
Seeker
Again... the Hebrew language and thus the bible does not break things into the subspecies of animals that MAN has created. A cat is a cat, period. Do I believe in adaptation? Of course... and genetic modification? And selective breeding? Yes... these things happen. And so a cat that is smaller because of it's environment can be bred even smaller and domesticated.... that is all easy enough and it can happen over a relatively short period of time. But the point is... the bible does not break it down to subspecies... just the general species. So, Noach would have not had to carry as much as many think is too much for the story to be real.

Cats aren’t a single species, though. Tigers and housecats are part of two different species, and that’s not even getting into extinct species of cats.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

lasthero

Newbie
Jul 30, 2013
11,421
5,793
✟229,457.00
Faith
Seeker
Based on my belief in God and His word... that makes more sense to me than believing that the modern bird is yesterday's dinosaur. It lost it's reptilian skin, switched from being cold to warm blooded, and learned how to fly.

Dinosaurs were already warm blooded and we’ve already found ones that had feathers.

Not to mention, no one said all dinosaurs evolved into birds.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,058
16,810
Dallas
✟870,741.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Mary S isn't the only person(s) who have found biomaterial.

Mark Armitage's "tricerotops" horn is from a 30,000 year old bison.

Pre-flood there was no mountains of Ararat. They were formed when the mountains rose up and the valleys sank.

Where did all the heat that generated go?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,519
9,486
✟236,269.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Again... the Hebrew language and thus the bible does not break things into the subspecies of animals that MAN has created. A cat is a cat, period. Do I believe in adaptation? Of course... and genetic modification? And selective breeding? Yes... these things happen. And so a cat that is smaller because of it's environment can be bred even smaller and domesticated.... that is all easy enough and it can happen over a relatively short period of time. But the point is... the bible does not break it down to subspecies... just the general species. So, Noach would have not had to carry as much as many think is too much for the story to be real.
These are cats: They are each distinct species.
Domestic cat
Leopard
Clouded leopard
Snow Leopard
Tiger
Lion
Jaguar
Cheetah
Cougar
Jaguarundi
Marbled cat
Asian golden cat
Pallas's cat
Rusty-spotted cat
Leopard cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Sunda leopard cat
Jungle cat
Black-footed cat
Sand cat
Chinese mountain cat
African wildcat
European wildcat
African golden cat
Pampas cat
Andean mountain cat
Geoffroy's cat
Bay cat
Serval
Caracal
Bobcat
Canada Lynx
Eurasian Lynx
Iberian Lynx
Ocelot
Margay
Kodkod
Oncilla
Southern tigrina
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Science tries to find natural explanations for what we see in nature. That's science's job. It's the whole reason we have science. It doesn't matter what the religion (or lack thereof) of the scientist is. The scientist is obligated to use the scientific method. We have religion to cover the supernatural stuff, which science isn't capable of dealing with.
When God is not included in ANY possible outcome, on purpose... then science becomes an (anti) religion of it's own.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Semper-Fi
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
These are cats: They are each distinct species.
Domestic cat
Leopard
Clouded leopard
Snow Leopard
Tiger
Lion
Jaguar
Cheetah
Cougar
Jaguarundi
Marbled cat
Asian golden cat
Pallas's cat
Rusty-spotted cat
Leopard cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Sunda leopard cat
Jungle cat
Black-footed cat
Sand cat
Chinese mountain cat
African wildcat
European wildcat
African golden cat
Pampas cat
Andean mountain cat
Geoffroy's cat
Bay cat
Serval
Caracal
Bobcat
Canada Lynx
Eurasian Lynx
Iberian Lynx
Ocelot
Margay
Kodkod
Oncilla
Southern tigrina
According to how MAN breaks the species down. All I am saying is, whether you agree or not, like it or not... (I don't care).... the language the bible was written in does NOT break it down like that.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not to mention, no one said all dinosaurs evolved into birds.
Because of your inability to respect those who don't agree with you... you are on ignore and I will not interact with you again. There are others here, in this thread, who don't agree with me... but who were at least nice. Anyway... you're wrong, here is just ONE example I could share.

How Dinosaurs Shrank and Became Birds

“A bird didn’t just evolve from a T. rex overnight, but rather the classic features of birds evolved one by one; first bipedal locomotion, then feathers, then a wishbone, then more complex feathers that look like quill-pen feathers, then wings,” Brusatte said. “The end result is a relatively seamless transition between dinosaurs and birds, so much so that you can’t just draw an easy line between these two groups.”
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Yttrium

Independent Centrist
May 19, 2019
3,853
4,267
Pacific NW
✟242,386.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
When God is not included in ANY possible outcome, on purpose... then science becomes a religion (anti) of it's own.

You're talking about a philosophy of naturalism. That's a belief system. One could arguably call it a religion, but that's a pretty loose definition of religion. That isn't the same thing as science, which is a tool that can be used by anybody to find natural explanations for things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You're talking about a philosophy of naturalism. That's a belief system. One could arguably call it a religion, but that's a pretty loose definition of religion. That isn't the same thing as science, which is a tool that can be used by anybody to find natural explanations for things.
I am not anti-science... I am anti-anyone or anything who claims to have an open mind but who closes off possible answers that stand opposed to their paradigm. A family member who is working in Academia tells his son, "I want you to read anything you want." The son says, "Can I read the bible," and the dad of course says, "No, anything but that!" This is a typical mindset of an atheist scientist who is looking for answers but can't allow the supernatural to be weighed in as a possible influencing factor. To THAT person I would suggest he is being intellectually dishonest AND because of his bias... I don't need to read his conclusions because they are incomplete.

Thanks for the discussion. This isn't where I need to spend my time. Believe whatever you want. Thanks! :)
 
Upvote 0