Assurance of Salvation according to John...

[Dah'veed]

Tell me this a believer is in a church of say 1000 people. So how do they know who is a brother and who is not, so they can love the brother and have assurance they are saved.

The believing brother would be those that have assurance that they are saved. For which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb 2:11-12
Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you; 1 John 2:8
Believers remain in Him...you know that He [Christ Jesus] is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness [everyone who is justified in God’s sight] has been born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29

 

[Carl Emerson]

Using the whole of scripture to understand a book's context, can lead to error. That is how many preachers/churches have for their beliefs, a works based salvation.

You say John repeats several time that a lack of love is an indication of the absence of The Holy Spirit in a life.

I read 1 John 3 did not see that there, nor in chapter 4 or 5

Not sure how you could have missed the following...


1Jn 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.

20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

1 Jn3 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

 

[Guojing]

Using the whole of scripture to understand a book's context, can lead to error. That is how many preachers/churches have for their beliefs, a works based salvation.

You say John repeats several time that a lack of love is an indication of the absence of The Holy Spirit in a life.

I read 1 John 3 did not see that there, nor in chapter 4 or 5

Interesting, if both of you agreed that salvation is a free gift from God and not due to works, why is there even a need to be "assured of salvation" thru works?

 

[d taylor]

Not sure how you could have missed the following...


1Jn 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.

20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

1 Jn3 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

You made a specific statement "lack of Love is a sure indication of the absence of the Holy Spirit in a life."
So does that (life) mean believers or does life mean any person. If it is addressing just believers it seems like you are saying that a lack of love means that the believer has lost their born again status and are now an unbeliever. If you are not saying that, then why would John be writing about unbelievers to believers.

Knowing God in Our Experience? — 1 John 2:3 – Grace Evangelical Society

I posted in this thread articles that address verses in 1 John about love, abiding, etc., if you do not agree, fine. We will just have to leave it at that.

 

[d taylor]

Interesting, if both of you agreed that salvation is a free gift from God and not due to works, why is there even a need to be "assured of salvation" thru works?

There is not, that is what i have been saying again and again and again, works prove nothing concerning whether a person has trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

If you think i have been saying works prove salvation you are having a hard time understanding my beliefs.

 

[Guojing]

There is not, that is what i have been saying again and again and again, works prove nothing concerning whether a person has trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

If you think i have been saying works prove salvation you are having a hard time understanding my beliefs.

What I said was "both of you agreed that salvation is a free gift from God and not due to works".

 

[d taylor]

What I said was "both of you agreed that salvation is a free gift from God and not due to works".

I do not know what he believes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You made a specific statement "lack of Love is a sure indication of the absence of the Holy Spirit in a life."
So does that (life) mean believers or does life mean any person. If it is addressing just believers it seems like you are saying that a lack of love means that the believer has lost their born again status and are now an unbeliever. If you are not saying that, then why would John be writing about unbelievers to believers.

Because the context is in relation to a faction that split from the church - seemingly legalistic and unloving.

1 John 2:19
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19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What I said was "both of you agreed that salvation is a free gift from God and not due to works".

This is correct.

The issue is that while salvation comes as a free gift, not because of works - the assurance of salvation comes from seeing His Love evidenced in us.

By this we can be sure we have believed.

 

[Guojing]

This is correct.

The issue is that while salvation comes as a free gift, not because of works - the assurance of salvation comes from seeing His Love evidenced in us.

By this we can be sure we have believed.

You seem to want your cake and eat it as well.

If you believe salvation comes as a free gift, without the need for works, why isn't salvation assured, without the need for works as well ?

 

[d taylor]

Because the context is in relation to a faction that split from the church - seemingly legalistic and unloving.

1 John 2:19​

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19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

You do understand that verse is addressing antichrist, what do antichrist have to do with believers. antichrist were never believers and are not believers.

 

[Carl Emerson]

A conclusion of this matter is that anyone claiming to be a believer who hates a believer is a liar and is not saved - such a one needs to repent...

Another conclusion is that one can be assured they are saved if they experience His Love for the brethren.

The reason why this second conclusion is important is because it answers the nagging accusation some struggle with, that questions whether one has believed.

Not all face the question 'how do I know I have believed ?' but for some this is a real struggle.

DT's position seems to dismiss any sense of assurance of salvation by way of seeing evidence of His Love through us - yet this is at the heart of John's message.

 

[Dah'veed]

There is not, that is what i have been saying again and again and again, works prove nothing concerning whether a person has trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

They report how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come; 1 Thess 1:9-10

If you think i have been saying works prove salvation you are having a hard time understanding my beliefs.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; 1 John 5:20

John 3:36

 

[Carl Emerson]

You seem to want your cake and eat it as well.

If you believe salvation comes as a free gift, without the need for works, why isn't salvation assured, without the need for works as well ?

You miss the point - salvation is assured from God's viewpoint but being human we can question that fact.

What God has done in a life is evidenced by His Love in that life. That is not works, it is His Grace.

 

[Guojing]

You miss the point - salvation is assured from God's viewpoint but being human we can question that fact.

Is that like saying "Gravity is a fact, but being human, I can question that fact, by jumping off a tall building"?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is that like saying "Gravity is a fact, but being human, I can question that fact, by jumping off a tall building"?

I think the sin of unbelief can be quite subtle - even devious of fuelled by the adversary.

Folks question what one must do to be saved.

DT argues that repentance is not needed, only belief.

Peter preached repent and be baptised to receive the Holy Spirit.

Frankly I think that He draws folks to salvation in a variety of ways and we try to make rules from scripture as to how He must act.

For this reason the teaching of John given to a church under attack from false 'christians' who split off resulted in many questioning their salvation.

John assures them that His anointing is in them and the evidence of being saved is His Grace as work in their lives, particularly their love for one another.

How we need to understand this today with churches splitting over various issues.

 

[Guojing]

Peter preached repent and be baptised to receive the Holy Spirit.

Frankly I think that He draws folks to salvation in a variety of ways and we try to make rules from scripture as to how He must act.

So in order to make Peter say the same thing as John, would you say then that

1. Repentance is not a work because God is the one doing the repenting in a believer?
2. Water baptism is not a work because God is the one water baptizing the believer?

 

[d taylor]

-​

Justification by Works for Baptists (James 2:14-26) – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Carl Emerson]

So in order to make Peter say the same thing as John, would you say then that

1. Repentance is not a work because God is the one doing the repenting in a believer?
2. Water baptism is not a work because God is the one water baptizing the believer?

1 . Repentance is a gift of Grace

2 . I don't believe baptism is Salvific.

Gentlemen I don't think we can formulate all of what God must do from Scripture.

Anyway this thread is about Assurance of Salvation as recorded by John under God's inspiration.

 

[Guojing]

1 . Repentance is a gift of Grace

Where do you get scripture for all these motherhood statements?