Assurance of Salvation according to John...

[Guojing]

John’s baptism—where did it come from? Luke 1:17 Was it from heaven, or of human origin?” Matt 21:25-27

"I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8
“John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” Acts 19:4

As they were gathered together with Him, He told them, “Do not leave Jerusalem but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit...and you will be my witnesses; Acts 1:4-8

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior to grant Israel repentance and atonement for sins.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit,...Acts 5:30-32 The Holy Spirit tells us the same thing: Hebrews 10:13-17

Okay, you see water baptism as a gift from God as well, so its not a work of man.

 

[Dah'veed]

Okay, you see water baptism as a gift from God as well, so its not a work of man.

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Rom 6:3-4

The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:10-11

Thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.
Being then freed from sin, we have been made servants of righteousness. Rom 6:17-18

For the payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23

 

[GDL]

Love for the family of God is a sure sign that He is at work within you and you are saved.

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

This is a serious verse - hatred of other christians is a sure sign one is unsaved.

Love is not just a sure sign - it's a necessity.

GDL John 5:24 Amen, Amen, I say to you [all] that the one who is [continuously] hearing (PAPart) and [continuously] believing (PAPart) the one who sent Me has (PAI) eternal life and does not come (PMI) into judgment, but has/is passed/changed (PerfAI metabainō) from death into life....GDL 1 John 3:14 We have known (PerfAI) that we have passed/changed (PerfAI metabainō) from death into life, because we are loving (PAI) the brethren. The one who is not loving (PAPart) the brethren remains (PAI menō) in death.

It's not all as simple as 1 verse.
Is there belief w/o love?

 

[Chaleb]

10 anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God,

This partial verse is not actually speaking about trying to be like Christ.
And the reason you know is that no person has any righteousness of their own "to practice"., as "all have sinned".

So, the righteousness that the born again posses, is this.....>"The GIFT of Righteousness".

The way you practice this, is by keeping your Faith here : Christ alone is your Salvation,.... and not "falling from Grace" into self righteousness to try to "stay saved" by works.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A matter that troubles many is - how can I know I am saved.

The following is what John says about this important topic.

From 1 John 3:

6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.

Known repeating sins are serious and such matters should be disclosed to elders for prayer support and ministry.

10 anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

Love for the family of God is a sure sign that He is at work within you and you are saved.

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

This is a serious verse - hatred of other christians is a sure sign one is unsaved.

17 But whoever has worldly goods and sees his brother or sister in need, and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God remain in him?

Another very serious verse - Refusing to share what one has with the poorer believers is evidence of not having God's abiding Love.

1 John 5:

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The evidence of having Jesus is a life expressing His Love.

Now the context of these verses is a fellowship living in community - a mode that many churches are not in.

You will notice John does not refer to Baptism as evidence of salvation - it is all about whether or not the Love of Jesus is expressed through your life.

Comments appreciated - be encouraged.

Hey Bro.
I have a bit of a different take on 1 John and especially 1 John 3.
I think 1 John 3:9 is a key verse in understanding what John is saying.

1 John 3:9 KJV
9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Some have suggested the idea of "habitually" here also. As in:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot habitually sin, because he is born of God."
That does not ring right with me because of one obviuos reason. The connotation would be that God sins... just not habitually. No. God does not sin at all. Therefore the meaning of the verse is that the born again one does not sin either - at all. But that causes problems for some students because, again, for obvious reasons, we in fact do sin. So are we all therefore not of God?
The answer is in the word "whosoever." The same exact words are used in 1 John 5:4

1 John 5:4 KJV
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 3:9 = πας G3956 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM
1 John 5:4 = πας G3956 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM

IOWs the part of you that is born of God overcomes the world. The part of you that is born of God is your spirit. Our flesh and minds are still very capable of sinning.
So I believe that John is not talking about "whosoever" as in the "whole man" (spirit soul and body) in his epistle, just the spirit that has been born again. So 3:9 is correctly understood to also mean "whatsoever."

"Whatsoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot habitually sin, because he is born of God."

So his seed (spirit) remains in him (the whole man).

So then what is the assurance here?
I believe if we drop back to our understanding of the unregenerate man, we remember that he is incapable of doing righteousness at all. He is sinful and even the good things he does are filthy rags. He is a leopard who cannot change his spots, and he is sick with an incurable illness - sin.

Isaiah 64:6 KJV
6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jeremiah 13:23 KJV
23. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Jeremiah 17:9 ISV
9. "The heart is more deceitful than anything. It is incurable—who can know it?

So the point of this teaching, I think, is not that born again believers never sin. The point is that they are now capable of doing righteousness and they are capable of never sinning. If they walk according to their reborn spirit, they will never sin. This contrasted against the unbeliever who can never do righteousness, and always is sinful. The worst thing an unregenerate can do is walk according to his reborn spirit.
The really clears up the rest of 1 John 3, which has been difficult for many students.

The born again believer can do righteousness (though he may not always walk according to his reborn spirit).
The unregenerate cannot do righteousness (especially when he walks according to his unregenerate spirit).

So anyone who can do righteousness (at all) is born of God.
Anyone incapable of doing righteousness is not born of God.

 

[GDL]

Hey Bro.
I have a bit of a different take on 1 John and especially 1 John 3.
I think 1 John 3:9 is a key verse in understanding what John is saying.

1 John 3:9 KJV
9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Some have suggested the idea of "habitually" here also. As in:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot habitually sin, because he is born of God."
That does not ring right with me because of one obviuos reason. The connotation would be that God sins... just not habitually. No. God does not sin at all. Therefore the meaning of the verse is that the born again one does not sin either - at all. But that causes problems for some students because, again, for obvious reasons, we in fact do sin. So are we all therefore not of God?
The answer is in the word "whosoever." The same exact words are used in 1 John 5:4

1 John 5:4 KJV
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 3:9 = πας G3956 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM
1 John 5:4 = πας G3956 A-NSM ο G3588 T-NSM

IOWs the part of you that is born of God overcomes the world. The part of you that is born of God is your spirit. Our flesh and minds are still very capable of sinning.
So I believe that John is not talking about "whosoever" as in the "whole man" (spirit soul and body) in his epistle, just the spirit that has been born again. So 3:9 is correctly understood to also mean "whatsoever."

"Whatsoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot habitually sin, because he is born of God."

So his seed (spirit) remains in him (the whole man).

So then what is the assurance here?
I believe if we drop back to our understanding of the unregenerate man, we remember that he is incapable of doing righteousness at all. He is sinful and even the good things he does are filthy rags. He is a leopard who cannot change his spots, and he is sick with an incurable illness - sin.

Isaiah 64:6 KJV
6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jeremiah 13:23 KJV
23. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Jeremiah 17:9 ISV
9. "The heart is more deceitful than anything. It is incurable—who can know it?

So the point of this teaching, I think, is not that born again believers never sin. The point is that they are now capable of doing righteousness and they are capable of never sinning. If they walk according to their reborn spirit, they will never sin. This contrasted against the unbeliever who can never do righteousness, and always is sinful. The worst thing an unregenerate can do is walk according to his reborn spirit.
The really clears up the rest of 1 John 3, which has been difficult for many students.

The born again believer can do righteousness (though he may not always walk according to his reborn spirit).
The unregenerate cannot do righteousness (especially when he walks according to his unregenerate spirit).

So anyone who can do righteousness (at all) is born of God.
Anyone incapable of doing righteousness is not born of God.

Some of what you say is interesting to ponder, but a few observations about the language:

• 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes...is born from God - this is a masculine parsing
• 1 John 5:4-5 4 For whatever (neuter adjective) is born of God (neuter articular participle) overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? - There is a neuter parsing (whatever) and a masculine parsing (he who overcomes). Rather than me trying to explain this use of the neuter where we might expect a masculine like that used in 5:1 & 5:5, here is the translation note from the NET Bible:
• "The masculine might have been expected here rather than the neuter πᾶν τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ (pan to gegenneÒmenon ek tou theou) to refer to the person who is fathered by God. However, BDF §138.1 explains that "the neuter is sometimes used with respect to persons if it is not the individuals but a generic quality that is to be emphasized"; this seems to be the case here, where a collective aspect is in view: As a group, all those who have been begotten by God, that is, all true believers, overcome the world."
• I would add to this that this quality possibly being noted in the language seems to also be addressed in the statement about our faith being the victory - thus highlighting this quality of our faith - the quality of the group addressed is that they have this faith that is the victory that has overcome/conquered the world already in Christ
• NKJ 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. - we can see that this is a masculine parsing in several instances, not neuter
• As you likely know, there are many takes on the meaning of this verse. FWIW, IMO it's not resolved by changing the parsing of words.
  

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Some of what you say is interesting to ponder, but a few observations about the language:

• 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes...is born from God - this is a masculine parsing
• 1 John 5:4-5 4 For whatever (neuter adjective) is born of God (neuter articular participle) overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? - There is a neuter parsing (whatever) and a masculine parsing (he who overcomes). Rather than me trying to explain this use of the neuter where we might expect a masculine like that used in 5:1 & 5:5, here is the translation note from the NET Bible:
• "The masculine might have been expected here rather than the neuter πᾶν τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ (pan to gegenneÒmenon ek tou theou) to refer to the person who is fathered by God. However, BDF §138.1 explains that "the neuter is sometimes used with respect to persons if it is not the individuals but a generic quality that is to be emphasized"; this seems to be the case here, where a collective aspect is in view: As a group, all those who have been begotten by God, that is, all true believers, overcome the world."
• I would add to this that this quality possibly being noted in the language seems to also be addressed in the statement about our faith being the victory - thus highlighting this quality of our faith - the quality of the group addressed is that they have this faith that is the victory that has overcome/conquered the world already in Christ
• NKJ 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. - we can see that this is a masculine parsing in several instances, not neuter
• As you likely know, there are many takes on the meaning of this verse. FWIW, IMO it's not resolved by changing the parsing of words.

Thanks for your response!
I am wondering if you have a resolution to the problem?

1 John 3:
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

It would seem to say believers cannot sin. It is not that they choose not to sin or do not want to sin.. it says they do not sin and cannot sin.
Yet the same epistle says "if we confess our sins he if faithful and just to forgive..." And also "I would you not sin, but if you do, you have an advocate with the Father..."
So it is apparent that Christians do sin. Of course we all know this.
I have pondered that perhaps John is speaking about one specific sin, that is: believing and confessing that Jesus is Lord. All born-againers do not and cannot say Jesus is not come in the flesh. If you say Jesus is not come in the flesh, you are antichrist.
Interesting.
Thanks.

 

[GDL]

Thanks for your response!
I am wondering if you have a resolution to the problem?

1 John 3:
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

It would seem to say believers cannot sin. It is not that they choose not to sin or do not want to sin.. it says they do not sin and cannot sin.
Yet the same epistle says "if we confess our sins he if faithful and just to forgive..." And also "I would you not sin, but if you do, you have an advocate with the Father..."
So it is apparent that Christians do sin. Of course we all know this.
I have pondered that perhaps John is speaking about one specific sin, that is: believing and confessing that Jesus is Lord. All born-againers do not and cannot say Jesus is not come in the flesh. If you say Jesus is not come in the flesh, you are antichrist.
Interesting.
Thanks.

You have me looking at it again as I have many, many times over many years. I can tell you that no matter what takes I've read, I remain unsatisfied with the interpretations, and I've read a lot of works on it, obviously not all that have been written.

I will tell you something I just noticed. At the end of chapter 2 and into chapter 3 John is speaking of literally "doing righteousness" vs. "doing lawlessness" which he established as what sin is. So, I'm going to use "lawlessness" instead of "sin." John began with his purpose of establishing fellowship and he then immediately jumps into the discussion of lawlessness and how to deal with it and he says his purpose for writing this section is so we don't do lawlessness, which means so we do righteousness.

We focus so much on the normally primary points of being born from God, but at the moment I'm looking at switching that focus to "doing righteousness," which John mentions 3 times in just a brief section of ch. 2-3. If we take this phrase "doing righteousness" it can be used for whatever I can think of at the moment that I've just looked at again, for example: walking in the light, keeping God's commandments, loving the brethren, not doing lawlessness, etc., so I'm going to see where this take me. John does some really vital defining in 1J, such as love for God is keeping His commandments, which is another statement that can be looked at as "doing righteousness."

Anyway, you caught me just as I was reviewing this again. That's about where I am at the moment just about to look through the rest of ch. 3 to the end of the letter. The thing that interests me is that there is typically a reason for repetition in these documents. And John wrote one of the most pronounced if not the most pronounced examples of this spoken by Jesus - John 4 where Jesus uses a word 7 or 8 times (?) in just a few verses telling us what our Father was (and is) seeking - those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (normally translated "worship"). If you'll consider this, its IMO more language that can be spoken of as "doing righteousness."

Appreciate the response. It's nice to see someone thinking through things like this.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You have me looking at it again as I have many, many times over many years. I can tell you that no matter what takes I've read, I remain unsatisfied with the interpretations, and I've read a lot of works on it, obviously not all that have been written.

I will tell you something I just noticed. At the end of chapter 2 and into chapter 3 John is speaking of literally "doing righteousness" vs. "doing lawlessness" which he established as what sin is. So, I'm going to use "lawlessness" instead of "sin." John began with his purpose of establishing fellowship and he then immediately jumps into the discussion of lawlessness and how to deal with it and he says his purpose for writing this section is so we don't do lawlessness, which means so we do righteousness.

We focus so much on the normally primary points of being born from God, but at the moment I'm looking at switching that focus to "doing righteousness," which John mentions 3 times in just a brief section of ch. 2-3. If we take this phrase "doing righteousness" it can be used for whatever I can think of at the moment that I've just looked at again, for example: walking in the light, keeping God's commandments, loving the brethren, not doing lawlessness, etc., so I'm going to see where this take me. John does some really vital defining in 1J, such as love for God is keeping His commandments, which is another statement that can be looked at as "doing righteousness."

Anyway, you caught me just as I was reviewing this again. That's about where I am at the moment just about to look through the rest of ch. 3 to the end of the letter. The thing that interests me is that there is typically a reason for repetition in these documents. And John wrote one of the most pronounced if not the most pronounced examples of this spoke by Jesus - John 4 where Jesus uses a word 7 or 8 times (?) in just a few verses telling us what our Father was (and is) seeking - those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (normally translated "worship"). If you'll consider this, its IMO more language that can be spoken of as "doing righteousness."

Appreciate the response. It's nice to see someone thinking through things like this.

And thank you for your input and thoughts. More than I can consume right now.

 

[GDL]

And thank you for your input and thoughts. More than I can consume right now.

Understood. Looks like it's going to be a project, but I am already seeing things with a bit different eyes.

 

[Chaleb]

walking in the light, keeping God's commandments, loving the brethren, not doing lawlessness, et

That is not is not walking in the light.

what you are describing is just basic discipleship. "Present your body"..."mortify your members"... "take up your cross, of self denial"...etc, etc.

Walking in the "LIGHT".

This is a spiritual situation, as "LIGHT"" is not something you do as a good deed.

LOOK.....

Walk in the light = as "Jesus is IN the Light"

"in the Light" is spiritual, and you are making it "here are the works im doing".

That's not it.