Assume you are wrong.

[repentant]

See that's the problem with the 'keys'
argument.
So many different opinions.

So here's mine too

Matthew 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I think this is Jesus giving Peter the keys
to bring the gospel to the gentiles.


Here's another opinion:
This is from the USCCB (US Conference
of Catholic Bishops):

And one more:
And this is from ADVENT, a catholic website:


So yeah, a lot of interpretations of that one.

Anyhow thought you'd like to see the ideas.
sunlover

No IAA just missunderstood what I said..I assume she thought I was reffering to works..read what I wrote, and read the part I bolded of her reply..we said the same thing..

 

[IamAdopted]

And what in the Gospel did they preach? The teaching of Christ...that is what I said the keys are..what I meant by "what we need to do" is that we need to listen and follow these teachings..

Yes we are to preach the gospel to all living.. It is God who causes the increase..

 

[Benedicta00]

The keys to heaven given, were the keys to get into to heaven. These keys are the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the Church. These keys are what we must do to get to heaven.

Huh?? That's a new for me.

The bible is truly the reason why I know Orthodoxy is who left the Catholic Church.

The bible just doesn't support the premise that Peter (singular) was not given the keys of authority to open and shut, to bind and loose.

.

 

[repentant]

Huh?? That's a new for me.

The bible is truly the reason why I know Orthodoxy is who left the Catholic Church.

The bible just doesn't support the premise that Peter (singular) was not given the keys of authority to open and shut, to bind and loose.

.

Of course, how else can you try to justify the false supremecy of the Pope?


Regardless of who left who, 4 stayed together, and were correct in doing it..

I admit, depending on how you read the keys part, it can look like it was just Peter. But like I aid before, it can't be because that would make the other Apostles invalid and worthless if only Peter had the keys to Heaven..

But the binding and loosing part was to all Apostles, that one you can't read wrong..

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He is talking to ALL the Apostles in the above quote..so therefore when you read the quote below, you can also see He is talking to ALL of them as well..

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

So obviously if you look at both these verses, you can clearly say He was not talking to ONLY Peter..


Problem with the RCC is they assume the keys are some physical key to a gate. It's not. How does one get into heaven? By following Christ and His teachings, by believing in Him, etc. Therefore these things are the keys that can open the gates of heaven. He gaves these things to ALL the Apostles, not just Peter, or else like I said, the other Apostles would have no authority to teach anyone how to get to heaven.

Keys=metaphor for a way to enter, or unlock a mystery...mystery would be how to attain salvation. ALL the Apostles taught us this mystery...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Just sitting here thinking.

Assume for a moment that you and your church "have it wrong." (please let's not have "it can never happen, we are right because.... posts.)

Assume that your faith in certain teachings are completely erroneous.

For example, Protestants, assume that Mary is Sinless, Perpetual virgin, etc....

Catholics, assume that she is not.

Or, it could be the communion of saints. Whatever. The dogma or teaching doesn't really matter.


but given the assumption that your church/denomination is wrong, and you discover it, who do you think has the most serious ramifications for BEING wrong?

Two scenarios spring to mind.

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

Posted this in Mariology, because inevitably, that is what people will end up talking about, and they'd just have to move it anyways.

I am going to take a wild guess that this was answered....[with or without your satisfaction, of course]

NOW, let's reverse this and ask you...
WHAT IF you are in error??

 

[WarriorAngel]

Of course, how else can you try to justify the false supremecy of the Pope?


Regardless of who left who, 4 stayed together, and were correct in doing it..

I admit, depending on how you read the keys part, it can look like it was just Peter. But like I aid before, it can't be because that would make the other Apostles invalid and worthless if only Peter had the keys to Heaven..

But the binding and loosing part was to all Apostles, that one you can't read wrong..

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He is talking to ALL the Apostles in the above quote..so therefore when you read the quote below, you can also see He is talking to ALL of them as well..

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

So obviously if you look at both these verses, you can clearly say He was not talking to ONLY Peter..


Problem with the RCC is they assume the keys are some physical key to a gate. It's not. How does one get into heaven? By following Christ and His teachings, by believing in Him, etc. Therefore these things are the keys that can open the gates of heaven. He gaves these things to ALL the Apostles, not just Peter, or else like I said, the other Apostles would have no authority to teach anyone how to get to heaven.

Keys=metaphor for a way to enter, or unlock a mystery...mystery would be how to attain salvation. ALL the Apostles taught us this mystery...

Its not numbers that count.

ALL the Disciples in John 6 walked away from Christ...
[Apostles excluded in the Disciple count]
Did that make it right because they were great in number??

 

[WarriorAngel]

Ok....binding and loosing....all have it.

Not all have the KEYS, and NOT all were told they would be the ROCK to which CHRIST would BUILD His Church.

Also; not all were told to feed His sheep.

Peter was to lead. There are no questions from the Catholic Church that ALL of them have the given ordination to do that which is ordained by Christ...
BUT Christ made it evident HE wanted ONE to lead.

All are to do as Christ ordained...
And His desire was for their humble obedience and acceptance of BEING LAST.
Not leading, but being led.

DID NOT Christ tell Peter to even watch over the other Apostles???

 

[Benedicta00]

Of course, how else can you try to justify the false supremecy of the Pope?


Regardless of who left who, 4 stayed together, and were correct in doing it..

I admit, depending on how you read the keys part, it can look like it was just Peter. But like I aid before, it can't be because that would make the other Apostles invalid and worthless if only Peter had the keys to Heaven..

But the binding and loosing part was to all Apostles, that one you can't read wrong..

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He is talking to ALL the Apostles in the above quote..so therefore when you read the quote below, you can also see He is talking to ALL of them as well..

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

So obviously if you look at both these verses, you can clearly say He was not talking to ONLY Peter..


Problem with the RCC is they assume the keys are some physical key to a gate. It's not. How does one get into heaven? By following Christ and His teachings, by believing in Him, etc. Therefore these things are the keys that can open the gates of heaven. He gaves these things to ALL the Apostles, not just Peter, or else like I said, the other Apostles would have no authority to teach anyone how to get to heaven.

Keys=metaphor for a way to enter, or unlock a mystery...mystery would be how to attain salvation. ALL the Apostles taught us this mystery...

The bible just doesn't support the Orthodox view of this.

peter is clearly the chosen one to lead the others. Jesus even said, that Satan would sift Peter like wheat but Jesus prayed for him and in turn he would strengthen his brothers. Jesus also requested Peter feed his sheep and when Peter questioned Jesus and asked what about John... Jesus basically said, what about him? I have chosen YOU.

There are more examples, Orthodoxy's denial of Peter's primacy contradicts scripture.

 

[repentant]

Ok....binding and loosing....all have it.

Not all have the KEYS, and NOT all were told they would be the ROCK to which CHRIST would BUILD His Church.

Also; not all were told to feed His sheep.

Peter was to lead. There are no questions from the Catholic Church that ALL of them have the given ordination to do that which is ordained by Christ...
BUT Christ made it evident HE wanted ONE to lead.

All are to do as Christ ordained...
And His desire was for their humble obedience and acceptance of BEING LAST.
Not leading, but being led.

DID NOT Christ tell Peter to even watch over the other Apostles???

There is a difference between leadership and dictatorship. No one deny's Peter's seat was given the honor as first among equals. The problem was when the West believed he was more than the leader, or first among equals. Being a leader does not make one supreme. The Roman Pope never had this authority. Nor was he ever considered infalliable.

The bible just doesn't support the Orthodox view of this.

peter is clearly the chosen one to lead the others. Jesus even said, that Satan would sift Peter like wheat but Jesus prayed for him and in turn he would strengthen his brothers. Jesus also requested Peter feed his sheep and when Peter questioned Jesus and asked what about John... Jesus basically said, what about him? I have chosen YOU.

There are more examples, Orthodoxy's denial of Peter's primacy contradicts scripture.

So the quote where Jesus gives ALL the Apostles the authority to bind and loose, is not to be considered, but only the part when he says this along with the keys? He said the same thing twice, once to clearly ALL the Apostles. Did Jesus later remove this authority and then give it to only Peter?

But Jesus gave Mary to John, and she wasn't given to Peter, therefore Rome has no part of her...


Neither one of you obvioulsy have a clue on the role of Peter within the Orthodox Church. In Orthodox iconography, Peter is seen with Paul, and both of them are holding a little Church, while Peter is holding keys. Trust me, we know what Peter's role was. His role is the role the Pope of Rome had for the first 1000 years. But one day, the Pope decided he wanted to be supreme, so he became the supreme leader of his own Church...

 

[HisKid1973]

..And if you do ,who is it?

I don't see any example where one was to 'lord it" over another..They were rebuked by each other and decided things by council.. Show me one instance where one person called the shots in the early church, And if you do , who is it?..Where do you see them running to Peter for all the correct answers and decisions..pax..kim

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am going to take a wild guess that this was answered....[with or without your satisfaction, of course]

NOW, let's reverse this and ask you...
WHAT IF you are in error??

Well, certainly not to my satisfaction, no.... I don't think I can find a real example of anyone from RCC actually assuming they were wrong.

Assuming I'm wrong? That such things as the Marian Dogmas are true?

I haven't seen any reason to believe it would impact me that much.

Salvation comes from Christ alone. I'm sure that I'd receive my correction for it. (much like I believe Christ will explain how each of us had a least SOMETHING wrong... unlike the beliefs of the RCC, that they will get there and every practice and belief will be ratified and lauded.)

 

[sunlover1]

(much like I believe Christ will explain how each of us had a least SOMETHING wrong...

More like tons wrong lol.

unlike the beliefs of the RCC, that they will get there and every practice and belief will be ratified and lauded.)

I just love it when you speak latin like that!

 

[Benedicta00]

There is a difference between leadership and dictatorship. No one deny's Peter's seat was given the honor as first among equals. The problem was when the West believed he was more than the leader, or first among equals. Being a leader does not make one supreme. The Roman Pope never had this authority. Nor was he ever considered infalliable.




So the quote where Jesus gives ALL the Apostles the authority to bind and loose, is not to be considered, but only the part when he says this along with the keys? He said the same thing twice, once to clearly ALL the Apostles. Did Jesus later remove this authority and then give it to only Peter?

But Jesus gave Mary to John, and she wasn't given to Peter, therefore Rome has no part of her...


Neither one of you obvioulsy have a clue on the role of Peter within the Orthodox Church. In Orthodox iconography, Peter is seen with Paul, and both of them are holding a little Church, while Peter is holding keys. Trust me, we know what Peter's role was. His role is the role the Pope of Rome had for the first 1000 years. But one day, the Pope decided he wanted to be supreme, so he became the supreme leader of his own Church...

He gave all the apostles power to bind and lose but only Peter can bind what they lose and lose what they bind.

And primacy is not dictatorship. That's how you see it, that's not how it is.

The bible has examples all over it and Peter is clearly the head of the Church. We hardly see any mention of of the other apotles. What we see is Peter standing up, Peter speaking.

 

[IamAdopted]

He gave all the apostles power to bind and lose but only Peter can bind what they lose and lose what they bind.

And primacy is not dictatorship. That's how you see it, that's not how it is.

The bible has examples all over it and Peter is clearly the head of the Church. We hardly see any mention of of the other apotles. What we see is Peter standing up, Peter speaking.

Christ is the head of the church Bene.. Peter made many mistakes.. As we all have.. Peter was just one of the Apostles.. Peter even calls himself a fellow elder.. He never claims what you say He is.. We only have one Head and that is Christ.. We even Peter are part of His body.. Therefore making us joint heirs with Christ..

 

[Benedicta00]

..And if you do ,who is it?

I don't see any example where one was to 'lord it" over another..They were rebuked by each other and decided things by council.. Show me one instance where one person called the shots in the early church, And if you do , who is it?..Where do you see them running to Peter for all the correct answers and decisions..pax..kim

Neither do I see Peter Lording over anyone. The pope today doesn't Lord over anyone.

Christ choose Peter in two different places, in Matthew and in John. Told him he would be a fisher of men, gave him keys and request that he feed His sheep. This is clear and in Acts it is Peter who speaks, Peter who heals, Peter who stands up Peter who prophesize , Peter who settles the debate whether to circumcise or not. Peter who was imprisoned, Peter who was given the vision to go to the gentiles. The list goes on.

 

[Benedicta00]

Christ is the head of the church Bene.. Peter made many mistakes.. As we all have.. Peter was just one of the Apostles.. Peter even calls himself a fellow elder.. He never claims what you say He is.. We only have one Head and that is Christ.. We even Peter are part of His body.. Therefore making us joint heirs with Christ..

We know Christ is head of his Church, Peter is who he put in charge of his Church on earth.

Scripture is more than clear on this matter. It is overlty clear.

 

[IamAdopted]

We know Christ is head of his Church, Peter is who he put in charge of his Church on earth.

Scripture is more than clear on this matter. It is overlty clear.

No Christ is also the head of His church Here on earth.. And God is the head of Christ..We have some aposltes some pastors and the list goes on.. Peter even says that Jesus is the head of the Church..

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning,the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

 

[Benedicta00]

No Christ is also the head of His church Here on earth.. And God is the head of Christ..We have some aposltes some pastors and the list goes on.. Peter even says that Jesus is the head of the Church..

Me and Matthew disgree.

16Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[repentant]

He gave all the apostles power to bind and lose but only Peter can bind what they lose and lose what they bind.

Ok, that makes no sense whatsoever..

And primacy is not dictatorship. That's how you see it, that's not how it is.

"I am the supreme infalliable leader, and all must listen to me"...is not dictatorship?

The bible has examples all over it and Peter is clearly the head of the Church. We hardly see any mention of of the other apotles. What we see is Peter standing up, Peter speaking.

Actually Paul has more pull in Scripture than any of the 12 combined, but's that neither here nor there..also I seem to remember at the Council in Jerusalem in Acts, it was James who was "in charge", and was the one who spoke and stated what must be done.....but I do remember Peter speaking, and being rebuked by Paul...

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


James was the leader here, as he was the Bishop of Jerusalem. Peter was not the infalliable supreme leader of the Church...

 

[icedtea]

I read something wonderful the other day. The author said how can these heads of church keep getting
'elected' by a bunch of people, when if someone is supposed to pass the authority on to the next successor, it Should be the one who is leaving that role.
Brilliant!