Assume you are wrong.

[NewToLife]

Every understanding that I have, has come from challenging what it proposes. Including the divinity of Christ. Including the Existance of God. Everything. I am prepared to challenge everything until it is proven true, rendered false, or undeterminable. I fail to see what is bad about that. If I wasn't prepared to challenge, or if I did not, i would not be a Christian today.

Why do you imagine I was making a value judgement? It was more an observation that you were probably talking about 2 different things.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Why do you imagine I was making a value judgement? It was more an observation that you were probably talking about 2 different things.

likely. We usually are!

sorry, wasn't meant to be waspish.

 

[ScottBot]

right... but that still doesn't explain why you would question what you trust as perfect.

You stated it's ok to question, again I ask why you would bother?

Why would my son ask me why its not okay to go chase his ball out into the street? Am I being arbitrary and trying to lord my authority over him, or am I using my position of authority to help protect, nurture, and develop my son until he can take care of himself?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Why would my son ask me why its not okay to go chase his ball out into the street? Am I being arbitrary and trying to lord my authority over him, or am I using my position of authority to help protect, nurture, and develop my son until he can take care of himself?

like newtolife suggests, we are talking about two different things.

asking for an explanation is one thing, actively challenging the veracity of a claim is another.

I'm sure the first is alright within the RCC... the second, not so much.

 

[ScottBot]

like newtolife suggests, we are talking about two different things.

asking for an explanation is one thing, actively challenging the veracity of a claim is another.

I'm sure the first is alright within the RCC... the second, not so much.

I have a 15 year old daughter. You think all of her questions are for information or clarification. I will guarantee you that many our exchanges have to do with her questioning the validity of my decisions.

"You just don't understand...."
"Things are different now...."
"You don't know what's best for me..."

Hmmm, sounds like the challenges I made to my parents when I was a kid. And I'll bet that my parents challenged my grandparents with the very same things. Truth of the matter, none of the "arguements" that you have against Church authority and teachings are new. They are as old as the Church itself.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I have a 15 year old daughter. You think all of her questions are for information or clarification. I will guarantee you that many our exchanges have to do with her questioning the validity of my decisions.

"You just don't understand...."
"Things are different now...."
"You don't know what's best for me..."

Hmmm, sounds like the challenges I made to my parents when I was a kid. And I'll bet that my parents challenged my grandparents with the very same things. Truth of the matter, none of the "arguements" that you have against Church authority and teachings are new. They are as old as the Church itself.

and? what if they are not new? the RCC maintaining a stiff neck about what it teaches hardly proves that it has everything right.

however, you kind of skipped the point I made. You cannot question (challange) any teaching of the RCC.

 

[Benedicta00]

right... but that still doesn't explain why you would question what you trust as perfect.

You stated it's ok to question, again I ask why you would bother?

Becuase we lack wisdom. I still grapple with the Church being agaist the death penelty.

I know it's not a dogma I have to assent to, but I can not agree fully with why ridiclous ppl shouldn't get death for what they do.

But I do see where the Church is coming from even though a part of me doesn't fully agree.

So when I'm faced with my feelings, I appriciate them but I obey the Church and I have to tell myself Jesus would not be for death even though the creep deserves it. One day my feelings will catch up with what the Church says becuase I obey first, not becuase I need to be convinced, then obey.

All we have to do is obey and as we grow, we will gain the wisdom we need but it will never come if we are obstinate and full of our own pride. standing in our own way. .

 

[ScottBot]

and? what if they are not new? the RCC maintaining a stiff neck about what it teaches hardly proves that it has everything right.

however, you kind of skipped the point I made. You cannot question (challange) any teaching of the RCC.

Do you consider the Supreme Court "stiff necked" about its right to interpret the Constitution?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Do you consider the Supreme Court "stiff necked" about its right to interpret the Constitution?

on occasion, sure. However, my perspective on Constitutional issues is invalid... I'm Canadian.

 

[sunlover1]

All we have to do is obey and as we grow, we will gain the wisdom we need but it will never come if we are obstinate and full of our own pride. standing in our own way. .

for humility.


But God is our final authority right?

 

[Benedicta00]

for humility.


But God is our final authority right?

This is a false dichtomoy. The Catholic Church is God's Church and speaks with his authorty.

.

 

[ScottBot]

for humility.


But God is our final authority right?

God is the Alpha and the Omega.

That said, who was the ultimate authority when Pharoah gave his ring and his seal to Joseph?
Was Joseph's authority his own, or was it derived from Pharoah's authority?

 

[Uphill Battle]

off topic post!

http://www.christianforums.com/t5031068-love-your-enemies-thread.html

back on topic.

 

[Uphill Battle]

God is the Alpha and the Omega.

That said, who was the ultimate authority when Pharoah gave his ring and his seal to Joseph?
Was Joseph's authority his own, or was it derived from Pharoah's authority?

now if we can just find where RCC was given "ring and seal" we'll be all set! (yes, I know Scott.... Paradigms.)

 

[ScottBot]

now if we can just find where RCC was given "ring and seal" we'll be all set! (yes, I know Scott.... Paradigms.)

It was given the keys, another biblical symbol of authority ......

[bible]isaiah 22:22[/bible]
[bible]matthew 16:19[/bible]

Ya, I know, paradigms.

 

[sunlover1]

God is the Alpha and the Omega.

Amen!


That said, who was the ultimate authority when Pharoah gave his ring and his seal to Joseph?
[/quote]
God.

 

[repentant]

The keys to heaven given, were the keys to get into to heaven. These keys are the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the Church. These keys are what we must do to get to heaven.

 

[IamAdopted]

The keys to heaven given, were the keys to get into to heaven. These keys are the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the Church. These keys are what we must do to get to heaven.

They keys are not what we need to do.. Jesus still has the keys in His hands in Revelation. But Jesus does not open a door He opens a book.. If your name is not written the Lambs book of life then you are not in. Preaching the gospel is the key that was given to the Apostles.. Believing on the Lord Jesus and being born again gets you written in the book.. This comes by hearing the Gospel..

 

[sunlover1]

The keys to heaven given, were the keys to get into to heaven. These keys are the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the Church. These keys are what we must do to get to heaven.

They keys are not what we need to do.. Jesus still has the keys in His hands in Revelation. But Jesus does not open a door He opens a book.. If your name is not written the Lambs book of life then you are not in. Preaching the gospel is the key that was given to the Apostles.. Believing on the Lord Jesus and being born again gets you written in the book.. This comes by hearing the Gospel..

See that's the problem with the 'keys'
argument.
So many different opinions.

So here's mine too

Matthew 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I think this is Jesus giving Peter the keys
to bring the gospel to the gentiles.


Here's another opinion:
This is from the USCCB (US Conference
of Catholic Bishops):

14 [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the key of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts" (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.

And one more:
And this is from ADVENT, a catholic website:

16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
[SIZE=-1]Et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis[/SIZE]
Loose on earth... The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence; the power of which is here granted.

So yeah, a lot of interpretations of that one.

Anyhow thought you'd like to see the ideas.
sunlover

 

[repentant]

They keys are not what we need to do.. Jesus still has the keys in His hands in Revelation. But Jesus does not open a door He opens a book.. If your name is not written the Lambs book of life then you are not in. Preaching the gospel is the key that was given to the Apostles.. Believing on the Lord Jesus and being born again gets you written in the book.. This comes by hearing the Gospel..

And what in the Gospel did they preach? The teaching of Christ...that is what I said the keys are..what I meant by "what we need to do" is that we need to listen and follow these teachings..