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Assembly of God and Tongues

StanJ

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When I checked the web for some material by Jennings, the first one that I came across certainly showed its age (1968) where he made the rather odd following remark that I would expect would be rejected by all serious contemporary anthropologists, be they Christian or even atheists:

"Psychologists studying glossolalia are virtually unanimous in describing the phenomenon as ecstatic vocalization of sounds which do not, for the most part, constitute genuine language. The glossolalist enters a state of emotional exaltation in which, with individual variation and diverse environment, his behavior is symptomatic of somnambulism, hypnotism, catalepsy, or hysteria". (Jennings 1968)​

Having read numerous articles by those who are involved with speech analysis, very few seem to be prepared to provide any definite conclusions but Jennings remarks seem to reflect more of an earlier period where they knew very little if anything about Biblical Glossolalia.

Up until more recent years, the more exhuberant cessationist commentators used to try and connect Biblical tongues with that of the Greek oracles but through the research of numerous scholars any such connection has now been debunked.

The online version I read which Swordsman seems to be citing, was dated 1967 and I was going to make a comment about it's seeing as I was saved in 1971. There's been a lot of change in regards to speaking in tongues since that time so I have to guess that swordsman is of that generation. I have had over 45 years to hone my apologetics in this regard so there's not much that I haven't encountered or I'm not able to address in this matter. My only shortcoming is the lack of patience for very obvious issues that are dealt with in Scripture.
 
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swordsman1

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You confirm my point about Isaiah 28:11 as the issues there was the language that sounded like stammering and gibberish.

Which is not echoed in Paul's quotation of Isaiah's prophecy in 1 Cor 14. In applying it to tongues, he emphasizes that it was foreign languages spoken, not what it sounded like.
 
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StanJ

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There is no misleading. Sacerdotal glossolalia is simply one type of glossolalia that is spoken by the priests of certain religions (the Dyaks, the shamens, and the "zar cult" in the list) that includes 'obsolete words'. It is still glossolalia. The speaker doesn't have a clue what he is saying, nor does anyone else.
It was as you framed it, and the author himself states; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues." Which leads to an obvious conclusion that his whole perspective is rather contradictory, and appears to vacillate from one side to the other.
Well now we are back to your implausible theory which virtually all respected theologians, including pentecostal and charistmatic, reject.
Which you keep claiming but have thus far been unable to corroborate. Maybe you should try refuting me out of your own knowledge instead of relying on so-called respected theologians. It would appear to me that my knowledge is not only head knowledge but experiential knowledge the latter of which you apparently have none of. There's a lot to be said for having a faith label here on CF, but you choose to use the generic one which doesn't really give a good clear indication of the perspective of your beliefs. You seem to rely more on the men that support your ideology than scripture that doesn't?
No they weren't faking it or making it up. I believe they simply discovered the technique of speaking glossolalia. I will find the paper and post a link to it.
Like I said, even if they were able to do it it wouldn't be totally surprising as the scriptures tell us that the devil does appear as an angel of Light. The fact that they would use less spiritually discerning people for their test subjects doesn't really say much for the authenticity of the test.
After all I have run into several less spiritually discerning people on this thread, so you know what the scriptures say yet still refuse to accept it.
I guess we'll have to wait and see if you can come up with this example and the reason you'll use to justify it?
 
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StanJ

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Which is not echoed in Paul's quotation of Isaiah's prophecy in 1 Cor 14. In applying it to tongues, he emphasizes that it was foreign languages spoken, not what it sounded like.
No, the context is order and as such the language they came across as confusing would definitely fall into that category. I have heard many foreign languages in my life and none of them seem confusing to me, although I did not understand most of them. However I do understand some Spanish or Italian when I hear it as well as some Korean, Japanese, and Mandarin / Cantonese. Just not all if it. I'm pretty sure that the people of Jesus's day in that geographical region, would be able to recognize languages from those areas or adjacent areas even though they didn't necessarily understand the words. I'm sure in Jesus's day some recognized Egyptian, even though they might not understand it.
If you refuse to recognize or accept the context of tongues in the New Testament then all the Apologetics in the world won't change your mind as that would be only possible for God to do. He can change the mind of the inculcated if they are willing to listen to him and his word.
However we must first obey everything he tells us to do in the order he tells us to do it to be able to have faith in him for understanding. If we can't believe and accept his written word then how can one expect to be directed by the Holy Spirit to see the truth therein?
 
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StanJ

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Stan, as I have a strong interest with Pneumatic theology, which has demanded that I try and keep abreast of the better commentaries on the subject, this has meant that I have been able to read a sizable portion of the better material that has been produced on the subject from around the late 80's. One of the more important books that came out at that time was with Grudem's The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (1988) which became a benchmark work on the subject of New Testament prophecy.

To my knowledge, Grudem was the first theologian who was able to make any sense of 1 Cor 14:20-25 particularly with Paul's application of Isa 28:11-12, which was a passage that had baffled not only the cessationist but also the Continuist as well. Even though I regularly quote Grudem's material in part, as most people tend not to purchase the more scholarly books, I thought that it would be useful to post his 14 pages on Isaiah 28. As we need to be careful has to how much copyrighted material we post, I have included these pages without its accompanying footnotes and as the material comes from his earlier edition of Prophecy, I would recommend that those who are interested with prophecy go and purchase his newer work.

One of the more impactful parts of the following chapter is with how he demonstrated that a sign can be both positive and negative. He also rightfully pointed out that the improper use of tongues within the assembly, where each tongue is not interpreted/articulated, is that it has the unintended outcome of becoming a negative sign to those who are either unsaved or who are cessationists, in that as both are generally unfamiliar with the things of the Holy Spirit that it will often cause them to stumble and where they become hardened to the Gospel.

The material that I have provided within the Spoiler is best copied and pasted into MSWord (or similar) where a number of weeks can be spent digesting what Grudem has to say.


The Gift of Prophecy In the New Testament and Today, Wayne Grudem (1988) pp. 171-82


Prophecy as a Sign of God’s Blessing
in a Church

(1 Cor 14:20-25)

Introduction


In the middle of Paul’s instructions about the use of prophecy and tongues in the church he includes a six-verse admonition to the Corinthians (1 Cor 14:20-25), in which he says that they should not think in childish ways but should be mature, and then concludes by saying that they should seek to prophesy, because unbelievers will be driven away by tongues (without interpretation), but they will be convicted by prophecy. To that extent the passage is clear.

The problem comes in the middle of the passage, where Paul quotes an Old Testament passage (Is 28:11-12) and then says that tongues are a ‘sign’ to unbelievers but prophecy is (a ‘sign’) for believers. Yet why does he then go on to say they should use prophecy, not tongues, when unbelievers are present 1 Cor 14:23-25)?

The passage begins as follows

Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. In the law it is written, ‘With other tongues and with lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me,’ says the Lord. So tongues are a sign not to believers but to unbelievers, but prophecy is (a sign) not to un- believers but to believers (1 Cor 14:20-22).

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The meaning of the Old Testament quotation (Is 28:11- 12)

The context of Paul’s quotation from Isaiah 28:11-12 is one of judgement on unbelievers in Israel. The Lord had repeatedly warned his people but they had refused to listen. So he was warning them now that he would send on them foreign invaders (the Assyrians) whose speech they would not understand:

For with stammering lips and with other tongues he will speak to this people, to whom he said, ‘This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose’; but they were not willing to hear.​

In the past the Lord had spoken clear and comforting words to the people. But they had stubbornly resisted his word. So as a result, Isaiah says that in the future the Lord will speak unclear words ‘with stammering lips and other tongues’, as a punishment for their hardness of heart. The ‘stammering lips’ and ‘other tongues’ are the lips and tongues of foreign (Assyrian) invaders, whom the people will not understand.

Paul’s use of Isaiah 28:11-12

Paul’s quotation of this verse is quite free, but not foreign to the context. ‘ “With other tongues and with other lips I will speak to this people, and not even then will they obey me,” says the Lord.’ Paul understands very well that when God speaks to people in a language they cannot understand, it is a form of punishment for unbelief. Incomprehensible speech will not guide but confuse and lead to destruction. And it is one of the last in a series of divine rebukes, none of which have produced the desired repentance and obedience (‘and not even then will they obey me’). So Derek Kidner, commenting on Isaiah 28, can say, ‘Paul’s quotation of verse 11 in 1 Corinthians 14:21 is thus a reminder, true to this context, that unknown tongues are not God’s greeting to a believing congregation but his rebuke to an unbelieving one.’


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Are both prophecy and tongues called ‘signs’?

What conclusion does Paul draw from this quotation? He says, ‘Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers...’ (1 Cor 14:22, rsv). It is simply a misunderstanding of the grammatical construction used here when some translations render this as ‘tongues are for a sign’ (Authorized Version and New American Standard Bible), or even tongues are ‘intended as a sign’ (New English Bible), because this construction (Greek eis + accusative with the verb ‘to be’) often can replace a predicate nominative with no real change in meaning.68 Paul simply says, ‘Tongues are a sign.’

But then what does he say about prophecy? Quite literally, he says, ‘But prophecy not for believers but for unbelievers.’ There is no verb in this half of the sentence, and the idea must be supplied by the reader.

Several translations make this read, ‘But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.’

This is certainly a legitimate option grammatically, for Greek sentences frequently leave out the verb ‘to be’ and expect it to be understood by the reader. But just putting the verb ‘is’ in this sentence changes the focus slightly from Paul’s concern in the first half of the sentence. This makes the second half of the sentence concerned with benefit: prophecy gives benefit for believers, or is intended to be used for believers.

Yet Paul is not talking about benefit in the first half of the verse, he is talking about what is a ‘sign’. If the context allows it, it is much better to retain this same subject in the second half of the sentence. This gives a more satisfactory contrast and doesn’t import a new idea (the idea of who benefits from prophecy). If we retain the idea of ‘sign’ in the second half, Paul’s sentence means: ‘Therefore, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers ... but prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.’

In addition to the fact that this translation allows the same

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subject to continue through the sentence, there is another reason why this sense seems the best. To say (with the Authorized Version and New English Bible) that prophecy is designed for believers but not for unbelievers does not adequately explain the ‘therefore’, with which Paul introduces verses 23-25. In those verses Paul argues specifically that prophecy does have a positive function for unbelievers. But on the translation that says prophecy is not for unbelievers, we have this strange reasoning:

(a) Prophecy is intended not for unbelievers but for believers;
(b) therefore, you should prophesy to unbelievers.

Such reasoning simply does not make sense, and a better solution is required.

We can conclude that, if an appropriate sense can be found for this translation, it is best to translate verse 22: ‘Therefore, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers . . . but prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.’


The key to understanding this passage: ‘Signs’ can be positive or negative

Much confusion about this passage has resulted from an assumption that a ‘sign’ in Scripture must always function in the same way, usually in a positive way, as something that indicates God’s approval or blessing. If this is so, it is hard to understand why tongues are a ‘sign’ for unbelievers but then Paul says tongues will drive unbelievers away.

This problem can be solved, however, by realizing that ‘signs’ in Scripture can be either positive or negative, and sometimes both. If we trace the Greek term used for ‘sign’ (Greek semeion) back into the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), we find many examples to show this.

In the Septuagint, the word ‘sign’ (Greek semeion) can often mean ‘an indication of God’s attitude’. These indications are either positive or negative: positive towards those who believe

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and obey God, but negative towards those who disbelieve and disobey him. Many signs are entirely positive: the rainbow (Gen 9:12-14) the blood on the doorpost (Ex 12:13) the invitation from the Philistines to Jonathan (1 Sam 14:10) the mark on the forehead (Ezek 9:4, 6) or any other signs sought by people who feel forsaken by God (Ps 74:9; 86:17)

Other signs are entirely negative, since they show God’s disapproval and warn of judgement unless repentance is quickly forthcoming:
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (Num 26:10)
the bronze censers of these men (Num 16:38; cf. v. 40)
Aaron’s rod (Num 17:10)
the fulfilled curses (Deut 28:46)
the defeat of Pharaoh Hophra (Jer 44:29)
Ezekiel’s iron wall (Ezek 4:3; cf. also Ps 65:8, Is 20:3,2 Macc 15:35)​

But sometimes the term can be used of signs which are both positive and negative, indicating God’s approval and blessing on his people and his disapproval and warning of judgement towards those who are disobeying him. This is especially true of the events of the Exodus: when God sent a plague of flies on the Egyptians but kept the flies out of the land of Goshen, it was a sign of blessing to Israel but disapproval and warning to the Egyptians (Ex 8:23). The same signs and wonders can be negative signs to Pharaoh (Ex 10:1-2; 11:9-10; Deut 6:22,11:3; Neh 9:10) but positive signs to Israel (Deut 4:34-35; 6:22; 7:19; 26:8).69

In conclusion, ‘sign’, when used to mean ‘an indication of God’s attitude’, can take either a positive sense (indicating God’s approval and blessing) or a negative sense (indicating God’s disapproval and imminent judgement).

Also in the New Testament, ‘sign’ (semeion) can mean ‘an

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indication of God’s approval and blessing’ (Acts 2:22,43; 4:30; 5:12; 6:8; 15:12; Lk 2:34; Jn 2:11; 4:54; 9:16; the word is also used this way outside the New Testament: compare Epistle of Barnabas ΑΛΑ, 1 Clement 51.5). It can also mean ‘an indication of God’s disapproval and a warning of judgement’ (Lk 11:30; 21:11, 25; Acts 2:19; perhaps Mt 12:39 [cf. 12:41]; 16:4; com- pare the use in a.d.95 in 1 Clement 11.2).


Summary of Paul’s meaning

The preceding information indicates that when Paul says ‘Tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers’ (1 Cor 14:22), he is using ‘sign’ in a familiar and well-established sense. Towards those who disbelieve, signs as indications of God’s attitude in the Old Testament are always negative. They indicate God’s disapproval and carry a warning of judgement. This was precisely the function of the ‘other tongues’ in Isaiah 28:11 and Paul quite naturally applies the term ‘sign’ to them.

But ‘signs’ for those who believe and obey God in the Old Testament are generally positive. They indicate God’s presence and power among his people to bless them. Thus Paul can quite easily apply the term to prophecy in a positive sense. Prophecy is an indication of God’s approval and blessing on the congregation because it shows that God is actively present in the assembled church.70

This means that the word ‘therefore’, in 1 Corinthians 14:23 is quite natural. We can paraphrase Paul’s thought as follows:

When God speaks to people in a language they cannot understand, it signifies his anger and results in their turning farther away from him. Therefore (v. 23), if outsiders or unbelievers come in and you speak in a language they cannot understand, you will simply drive them away—this is the inevitable result of incomprehensible speech. Furthermore, in your childish way of acting (v. 20) you will be giving a ‘sign’ to the unbelievers which is entirely wrong, because their hardness of heart has not reached the point where they deserve that severe sign of judgement. So when you come​

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together (v. 26), if anyone speaks in a tongue, be sure someone interprets (v. 27); otherwise, the tongue-speaker should be quiet in the church (v. 29).

Similarly with prophecy, verses 24-25 follow quite easily from the statement in verse 22 that prophecy is a sign to believers. Once again we paraphrase Paul’s thought:

Prophecy is an indication of God’s presence among the congregation to bless it (v. 22). Therefore (v. 23), if an outsider comes in and everyone prophesies (v. 24), you will be speaking about the secrets of the outsider’s heart which he thought no one knew. He will realize that these prophecies must be the result of God’s working, and he will fall on his face and declare, ‘Truly God is among you’ (v. 25). In this way prophecy will be a sure sign to you that God really is at work in your midst.


Implications for the gift of speaking in tongues

It should be noted in connection with this passage that Paul’s reaction to this recognition of the sign function of tongues is not to forbid tongues in public worship, but to regulate the use of tongues so that they will always be interpreted when spoken in public (1 Cor 14:27-28). This seems to be a very appropriate response, for it is only incomprehensible tongues which have this negative function towards unbelievers, both in Isaiah 28:11 and in 1 Corinthians 14:23. But when a speech in tongues is interpreted, it is no longer incomprehensible and it no longer retains this ominous sign function.

Therefore, it is important to realize that in 1 Corinthians 14:20-23 Paul is not talking about the function of tongues in general, but only about the negative result of one particular abuse of tongues, namely, the abuse of speaking in public with- out an interpreter (and probably speaking more than one at a time [cf. 1 Cor 14:23, 27]) so that it all became a scene of unedifying confusion.
Concerning the proper public function of the use of tongues

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plus interpretation, or the proper private function of speaking in tongues, Paul is elsewhere quite positive (1 Cor 12:10-11, 21-22,14:4, 5,18,26-28, 39). So to use Paul’s discussion of an abuse of tongues in 14:20-23 as the basis for a general polemic against all other (acceptable) uses of tongues is quite contrary to the entire context in 1 Corinthians 12-14.

This crucial point, essential to understanding Paul’s meaning here, is completely overlooked by some Reformed and dispensational interpreters of this passage. For example, the fact that Paul is talking not about tongues with interpretation but about uninterpreted tongues (which were not able to be understood by the hearers) is overlooked by O. Palmer Robertson,71 and also by Zane Hodges.72 Neither Robertson nor Hodges adequately takes account of the fact that at Corinth any unbeliever who entered, whether Jew or Gentile, would not understand what was spoken in tongues. Paul repeatedly says that uninterpreted tongues could not be understood by the hearers at Corinth (see 1 Cor 14:2, 9, 11, 14, 16, 19, 23, 28). In fact, Paul’s main concern in 1 Corinthians 14 is to contrast intelligible with unintelligible speech.

In this connection, Robertson argues that tongues were a ‘sign’ of the transition between God’s dealing with Israel and his dealing with all nations.73 That might possibly be true in some contexts (such as Acts 22), but it is totally foreign to the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14, where Paul makes no mention of the Gentile inclusion or of judgement on the Jews—he contrasts not ‘Jews’ and ‘Gentiles’ but ‘believers’ and ‘unbelievers’. And because he does not specify Jewish unbelievers, while there were certainly Gentile unbelievers visiting the church at Corinth as well, we must understand ‘unbeliever’ here as referring to unbelievers generally (both Jewish unbelievers and Gentile unbelievers). Paul is using Isaiah 28:11-12 not as a prediction about Jewish unbelievers, but as an example or illustration (with reference to unbelievers generally). Realizing this, Carson is right to conclude that Paul cannot be speaking here of tongues as a sign of a covenantal curse on unbelieving Jews.74

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Moreover, neither Robertson, nor Gaffin, nor Macarthur, all of whom use this ‘covenantal curse’ interpretation to argue against tongues today, take enough account of the fact that Paul’s solution in this passage is not to forbid the use of tongues altogether, but to direct that tongues be used with interpretation (1 Cor 14:27-28). Since Paul approves tongues with interpretation, they cannot be a judgement sign on unbelieving Jews.


Conclusion: How is prophecy a sign of God’s blessing?

Returning now to a consideration of prophecy, we are in a position to understand 1 Corinthians 14:24-25 more clearly. ‘If you all prophesy’ in verse 24 is probably to be understood as a hypothetical situation which Paul need not have thought would ever actually occur (note 1 Cor 12:29, ‘not all prophesy, do they?’).

Nevertheless, if several people prophesy, the outsider is ‘convicted’ of sin and ‘called to account’ by several different people (1 Cor 14:24), presumably in different ways or with respect to different matters. In this way the secret sins of his heart are ‘disclosed’ (1 Cor 14:25).

But does this passage mean that specific sins of a specific individual are mentioned in the prophecies? Might it not mean rather that there is some general preaching about sin, and the Holy Spirit applies it specifically to an individual’s heart, giving a sense of conviction of sin?

Although verse 24 might simply mean that the outsider hears some general prophecy or preaching and is inwardly convicted of his sin, this cannot be true of verse 25. Verse 25 must mean that specific mention of one or more of his particular, individual sins is made in the prophecies.75

This is true because of the meaning of the word used and because of the context. The word for ‘disclosed’ or ‘become manifest’ is the Greek termphaneros. Both this word (eighteen times in the New Testament) and its related verb, phaneroo,

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(forty-nine times in the New Testament) always refer to a pub- lie, external manifestation, and are never used of private or secret communication of information, or of the internal working of God in a person’s mind or heart.
With regard to the context, the reaction of the outsider— ‘falling on his face he will worship God, declaring, ‘Truly God is among you’—is not normally one that accompanies even good preaching, but Paul seems quite sure that it will happen. Now Paul might have thought this would happen occasionally with a mention of general kinds of sins, but the statement as it applies to every situation like this is more understandable if he thought the prophecies would contain something very striking and unusual, such as specific mention of the visitor’s sins. The visitor will think that these Christians know things that could only have been revealed to them by God; they know the secrets of his heart! It seems to be the fact of knowledge acquired by ‘supernatural’ means, not merely the conviction of sin, which effectively convinces the outsider of God’s presence.

I have heard a report of this happening in a clearly non- charismatic Baptist church in the United States. A missionary speaker paused in the middle of his message and said some- thing like this: I didn’t plan to say this but it seems the Lord is indicating that someone in this church has just walked out on his wife and family. If that is so, let me tell you that God wants you to return to them and learn to follow God’s pattern for family life.’ The missionary did not know it, but in the unlit balcony sat a man who had entered the church moments before for the first time in his life. The description fitted him exactly and he came forward and acknowledged his sin and began to seek God.

This is why it is prophecy (rather than some other gift) which Paul calls a ‘sign to believers’. The distinctiveness of prophecy is that it must be based on revelation, and revelation as it functions in prophecy is always something which, Paul thinks, comes spontaneously and comes only from God (see Chapter 5). Where there is prophecy, then, it is an unmistakable sign or

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indication of God’s presence and blessing on the congregation —it is a ‘sign for believers’—and even an outsider who visits will be able to recognize this.

We can now summarize the function of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14:20-25.

(i) Prophecy functions in evangelism to reveal the secrets of an unbeliever’s heart and thereby to amaze him with the power of God at work and to convict him of his sins.

(ii) In doing this, prophecy also serves as a certain indication (sign) that God is present and at work in the congregation to bless it and cause it to grow.

By implication from Paul’s example of the outsider we can further conclude that prophecy would also function from time to time to reveal the secrets of some believer’s heart, convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance. Although Paul does not cite this explicitly as a function of prophecy, it is certainly consistent with the picture of prophecy which we have found in these verses, and would fit perfectly well with Paul’s view of prophecy as resulting in edification and exhortation in 1 Corinthians 14:3-5. Furthermore, it would allow prophecy to function in this way as a sign for believers not just when an out- sider comes in, but at any time. Thus Paul’s statement ‘but prophecy is a sign for believers’ could be understood as a more general statement, not restricted to the specific application to which Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25.


Application for today

We should heed Paul’s warning to the Corinthians and not be childish or immature when we think about our congregational worship. Specifically, we should not speak in tongues without interpretation, for that would be giving an inappropriate ‘sign’ of God’s judgement on the unbeliever, driving him or her away. (Those churches which do allow speaking in tongues should do it in the orderly way described in 1 Corinthians 14:27, and always with interpretation, as in verse 28.)

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Mature thinking about prophecy would see it as something to be encouraged in the congregation, even when unbelievers are present. If prophecy is encouraged and allowed to function, it will convict both unbelievers and believers of sin, and will bring to the congregation a much more vivid sense that God is truly among them. It will be a ‘sign’ of God’s approval, of his presence, of his blessing on his people. We ought to see it as this and give thanks for it.


The Gift of Prophecy In the New Testament and Today, Wayne Grudem (1988) pp. 171-82

Thanks, I'll give it a look.
 
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swordsman1

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It was as you framed it

How do you mean? I simply said "Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:"

and the author himself states; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues." Which leads to an obvious conclusion that his whole perspective is rather contradictory, and appears to vacillate from one side to the other.

I fail to see the logic in that. He specifically excludes those cases of sacerdotal language where the words are known eg speaking Latin in Roman Catholic churches. Nothing contradictory in that.


Maybe you should try refuting me out of your own knowledge instead of relying on so-called respected theologians.

I think that would be rather like trying to reason with somebody who is convinced the Moon is made of cheese, but who rejects all the obvious evidence to the contrary and who doggedly asserts that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

It would appear to me that my knowledge is not only head knowledge but experiential knowledge the latter of which you apparently have none of.

Experience plays no part in determining correct doctrine, which must be based on scripture alone. This is the big problem with charismatic/pentecostal theology. They eisogetically attempt to interpret scripture in light of their personal experiences. Which is a hermeneutical fallacy.
 
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StanJ

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How do you mean? I simply said "Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:"
What I meant was you posted a list as an example of those that practised glossolalia when in fact they were examples of those that used a sacerdotal language. In my view that was being disingenuous.
I fail to see the logic in that. He specifically excludes those cases of sacerdotal language where the words are known eg speaking Latin in Roman Catholic churches. Nothing contradictory in that.
That doesn't mean it isn't logical you just fail to see it. Latin is not a sacerdotal language. Patois and Joual are much closer to sacerdotal, even though they are not. The point remains that have nothing to do with this issue, despite your efforts at deflection.
Experience plays no part in determining correct doctrine, which must be based on scripture alone. This is the big problem with charismatic/pentecostal theology. They eisogetically attempt to interpret scripture in light of their personal experiences. Which is a hermeneutical fallacy.
It certainly does when your experience confirms the doctrine. Where exactly is your experience confirmed in Scripture? My understanding is you haven't had the experience and that has clouded your judgment as to what is properly exegeted from scripture. Your attempts at eisegeting scripture to fit your pre-positional bias is not fallacy, it is true and is hermeneutically unsound.
 
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swordsman1

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What I meant was you posted a list as an example of those that practised glossolalia when in fact they were examples of those that used a sacerdotal language. In my view that was being disingenuous.
That doesn't mean it isn't logical you just fail to see it. Latin is not a sacerdotal language. Patois and Joual are much closer to sacerdotal, even though they are not. The point remains that have nothing to do with this issue, despite your efforts at deflection.

No I was not being disingenuous. I posted the examples from that paper that the researcher said was glossolalia. I have no reason to doubt his research. On that list only 3 were sacerdotal, and yet still by definition glossolalia as he says. You seem to be grasping at straws in order to try to disprove me.

It certainly does when your experience confirms the doctrine. Where exactly is your experience confirmed in Scripture? My understanding is you haven't had the experience and that has clouded your judgment as to what is properly exegeted from scripture. Your attempts at eisegeting scripture to fit your pre-positional bias is not fallacy, it is true and is hermeneutically unsound.

No, personal experience plays no part in formulating doctrine. That is bad hermeneutics. Only what it written in scripture can determine doctrine. Only once the doctrine is established can experience be allowed to confirm it. Charismatic/Pentecostal theology puts the cart before the horse, with doctrine formulated in order to accommodate their personal experience. With regard to tongues, the misinterpretations of 1 Cor 13:1 and 1 Cor 14:2 are classic cases in point. Your unsubstantiated theory about miraculous interpretation occurring in Acts 2 is another example. In believing their experience of glossolalia to be NT tongues, their whole interpretation on the passages about tongues is skewed by what they unwarrantedly assume tongues is, not on what the Bible says it is.
 
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StanJ

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No I was not being disingenuous. I posted the examples from that paper that the researcher said was glossolalia. I have no reason to doubt his research. On that list only 3 were sacerdotal, and yet still by definition glossolalia as he says. You seem to be grasping at straws in order to try to disprove me.
I'm not the one posting unproven articles, I was simply dealing with what you had posted and the inconsistencies therein. I already have refuted you, but I'm just trying to get you to see the folly of your ways but that obviously isn't working. Wandering off into the minutiae of everything that you bring up is not my idea of productive or getting to the truth. You started out by advocating that the incident in Acts 2:4 was xenoglossia and not glossolalia. The fact is you have not proven your assertions and it has never been proven that xenoglossia has EVER existed. On the other hand we have clearly seen that glossalalia is and was a reality in the church. That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned. That this also happened to Paul himself in Acts 9 and to Gentiles in Acts 8 & 10 and to Disciples of Jesus in Acts 19, along with all the instances in 1 Cor 12 & 14, fully qualifies as a Biblical precedent. Faith is required to believe Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit, and speak in tongues, and when one starts with doubt then there is no way forward. The numbers speak for themselves with well over 250 million Pentecostals in the world. The only question that remains is why do people not believe what Jesus said? Remember, Jesus said God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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swordsman1

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I'm not the one posting unproven articles, I was simply dealing with what you had posted and the inconsistencies therein.

It wasn't an unproven article, it was an academic study by a professor of Anthropology. Unlike some of the evidence you have given us which is nothing more than articles by random nobodies on the internet. If you dispute his findings I suggest you gather your evidence and write you own paper to refute him.

I already have refuted you, but I'm just trying to get you to see the folly of your ways but that obviously isn't working.

So you beleive. It will be up to others to judge who is right.

You started out by advocating that the incident in Acts 2:4 was xenoglossia and not glossolalia. The fact is you have not proven your assertions and it has never been proven that xenoglossia has EVER existed.

Yes I have - conclusively. In addition to the other evidence I gave, the plain reading of Acts 2 is proof enough. And the vast majority of theologians, even those of a Charismatic persuasion such the respected Grudem and Carson, agree with me.

On the other hand we have clearly seen that glossalalia is and was a reality in the church.

In Pentecostal and Charismatic churches maybe, as well as in other religions. But not in the New Testament church, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned.

The tongues were new to the disciples, not new to the world. The languages spoken at Pentecost were not new to the world.

That this also happened to Paul himself in Acts 9 and to Gentiles in Acts 8 & 10 and to Disciples of Jesus in Acts 19, along with all the instances in 1 Cor 12 & 14, fully qualifies as a Biblical precedent.

Where does Paul speak glossolalia in Acts 9?

There are no gentiles in Acts 8! Nor any mention of tongues, let alone glossolalia!

In Acts 10 the Gentiles spoke in tongues, but it was exactly the same kind of tongues spoken at Pentecost, xenoglossia. Peter says so in Acts 11:15,17.

The disciples in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist, not Jesus. After their conversion, they spoke in tongues but there is no mention of it's nature. It must therefore be presumed to be the same as those already described and not something else.

And where is the evidence for glossolalia in 1 Cor 12-14?

The numbers speak for themselves with well over 250 million Pentecostals in the world.
That means nothing. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, that doesn't make their theology correct.
 
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That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned.

I thought I'd check the commentaries to see if any agreed with your interpretation of "new tongues" in Mark 16:17.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Shall speak with new tongues - Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:4-11. It existed, also, in other places. See 1 Corinthians 12:10.

Adam Clarke Commentary
Speak with new tongues - This was most literally fulfilled on the day of pentecost, Acts 2:4-19.

E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
new = different in character. Greek. kainos, not neos. See notes on Matthew 9:17; Matthew 26:28, Matthew 26:29,

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
they shall speak with new tongues: or languages, not such as were new made, and had never been heard and known before; but foreign languages, such as they had never learned, or were able to speak, or understood before; and this not only did the apostles on the day of pentecost, but even common believers at other times, Acts 2:4 Acts 10:45.

Geneva Study Bible
(e) Strange tongues, ones which they did not know before.

Matthew Henry Commentary
They shall speak with new tongues, which they had never learned, or been acquainted with;

Mayers NT Commentary
And such is the speaking in new languages mentioned in the passage before us, in such languages, that is, as they could not previously speak, which were new and strange to the speakers.

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Speak with new tongues — Tongues by them not hitherto possessed.

I couldn't find a single commentary that agreed with your interpretation. I'm afraid it looks like you're on your own with that one as well.
 
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swordsman1

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I don't know that Samarin attempted to. But I do know there have been studies where linguistics students have been able to reproduce glossolalia. Their 'tongues' were played back to Pentecostals who described it as authentic examples of tongues. I will dig it out for you.

Here is the paper I was referring to:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1968/JASA9-68Pattison.html

In it the researcher notes:

Several linguistic studies, including our own, suggest that glossolalists develop their glossolalic speech from ill-formed structure to "Practiced" and "polished' glossolalic speech. Thus the linguistic qualities of the glossolalia depends to some extent on the stage of development of glossolalia.

The following seem to be reasonable conclusions from the linguistic studies. Glossolalia, in at least English-speaking subjects, is composed of the basic speech elements of English. The major difference consisting of lack of organization of the basic phenomes into the syntactical elements necessary for intelligible speech. The para-linguistic elements of speech, pauses, breaths, intonations, etc. are markedly reduced and modified. Thus glossolalic speech tends to resemble the early speech qualities of young children prior to the organization of all the variables associated with adult language. Further, there is a reduction in the distribution of phenomes, i.e. a limited phonemic catalogue is utilized by the glossolalists. The conclusions of the linguists cited is that glossolalia presents the characteristics of partially formed language without the formal characteristics of language.

Indeed, many of the qualities of glossolalic speech are those found in the speech of young children, which George Devereau has outlined. A comparison of his outline of children's speech and glossolalic speech is striking. On this basis, one may suggest that glossolalic speech appears to be a regression to an early mode of speech in which vocalization is used for purposes other than just the communication of rational thought. This hypothesis receives further support from other data to be cited.

Another line of investigation has focused on the replication of glossolalia under experimental rather than religious contexts.

Al Carlson, at the University of California, recorded two types of glossolalia, one type was recorded from glossolalists during spiritual exercises, and the other type was recorded by volunteers who were asked to spontaneously speak in unknown language without having ever heard glossolalia. These speech samples were then rated by glossolalists. The two types of glossolalia were not distinguished from each other. In fact, the "contrived" glossolalia received better ratings as "good glossolalia" than the actual glossolalia.

Werner Cohn, at the University of British Columbia, took naive students to Pentecostal churches to hear glossolalia and then asked the students to speak in glossolalia in the laboratory. They were able to successfully do so. Their recordings were then played to glossolalists who described the glossolalia as beautiful examples.

In sum, the structural linguistic data suggest that glossolalia has specific linguistic structure based on the language tongue of the speaker, that the linguistic organization is limited, and that the capacity to speak in this type of semi-organized language can be replicated under experimental conditions. Thus, glossolalia does not appear to be a "strange language," but rather the aborted formation of familiar language.
 
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StanJ

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It wasn't an unproven article, it was an academic study by a professor of Anthropology. Unlike some of the evidence you have given us which is nothing more than articles by random nobodies on the internet. If you dispute his findings I suggest you gather your evidence and write you own paper to refute him.
Still unproven and unsubstantiated. This guy was just as much a random nobody as the others that I have posted if you don't know who they are, with the exception that the article in question was well over 50 years old and as has already been pointed out to you by another, most of these observations are no longer acceptable.
I'd say the same thing for you, as you're the one that has refuses to say whether or not you have any credentials in this regard whatsoever.
So you beleive. It will be up to others to judge who is right.
No actually it's up to God to judge and it is God who is right along with his word. It is up to us as admonished by Paul to rightly divide the word of Truth.
Yes I have - conclusively. In addition to the other evidence I gave, the plain reading of Acts 2 is proof enough. And the vast majority of theologians, even those of a Charismatic persuasion such the respected Grudem and Carson, agree with me.
In my opinion this is nothing more than denial. I addressed all your misconceptions. The plain reading of Acts to is just that, straightforward just as the Greek is. γλῶσσα (glōssa) = tongues and διάλεκτος (dialektos. = language, καινός (kainos) = new as in unheard of, unusual, new in species, character or mode. Plainly, not another known or existing language.
In Pentecostal and Charismatic churches maybe, as well as in other religions. But not in the New Testament church, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.
Already refuted in post 169.
The tongues were new to the disciples, not new to the world. The languages spoken at Pentecost were not new to the world.
They were indeed new, as the Greek connotes New to be, as I have just shown above.
Where does Paul speak glossolalia in Acts 9?
V18
There are no gentiles in Acts 8! Nor any mention of tongues, let alone glossolalia!
So you think Acts 8 is only dealing with Samaritans? That's quite an assumption. Regardless, v17 & 18 show that. Of course if you don't plainly accept tongues as what they are, then you probably wouldn't be able to see when it happened. Read the beginning of v18 carefully.
In Acts 10 the Gentiles spoke in tongues, but it was exactly the same kind of tongues spoken at Pentecost, xenoglossia. Peter says so in Acts 11:15,17.
Yes Peter confirmed it was the same as Acts 2, which was glossalalia. Your assumption is again wrong.
The disciples in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist, not Jesus. After their conversion, they spoke in tongues but there is no mention of it's nature. It must therefore be presumed to be the same as those already described and not something else.
They were Disciples of Jesus baptized by John. Paul didn't ask them who they believed in he asked them when they believe that they receive the Holy Spirit. Here's a good indication of how you presume and assume instead of presenting facts.
And where is the evidence for glossolalia in 1 Cor 12-14?
Right in the scripture if you have eyes to see but if you are predisposed to not see it then you won't.
That means nothing. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, that doesn't make their theology correct.
Irrelevant, we're talking from a Christian perspective, or hadn't you noticed that? You are a Christian right?
 
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Here is the paper I was referring to:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1968/JASA9-68Pattison.html

In it the researcher notes:

Several linguistic studies, including our own, suggest that glossolalists develop their glossolalic speech from ill-formed structure to "Practiced" and "polished' glossolalic speech. Thus the linguistic qualities of the glossolalia depends to some extent on the stage of development of glossolalia.

The following seem to be reasonable conclusions from the linguistic studies. Glossolalia, in at least English-speaking subjects, is composed of the basic speech elements of English. The major difference consisting of lack of organization of the basic phenomes into the syntactical elements necessary for intelligible speech. The para-linguistic elements of speech, pauses, breaths, intonations, etc. are markedly reduced and modified. Thus glossolalic speech tends to resemble the early speech qualities of young children prior to the organization of all the variables associated with adult language. Further, there is a reduction in the distribution of phenomes, i.e. a limited phonemic catalogue is utilized by the glossolalists. The conclusions of the linguists cited is that glossolalia presents the characteristics of partially formed language without the formal characteristics of language.

Indeed, many of the qualities of glossolalic speech are those found in the speech of young children, which George Devereau has outlined. A comparison of his outline of children's speech and glossolalic speech is striking. On this basis, one may suggest that glossolalic speech appears to be a regression to an early mode of speech in which vocalization is used for purposes other than just the communication of rational thought. This hypothesis receives further support from other data to be cited.

Another line of investigation has focused on the replication of glossolalia under experimental rather than religious contexts.

Al Carlson, at the University of California, recorded two types of glossolalia, one type was recorded from glossolalists during spiritual exercises, and the other type was recorded by volunteers who were asked to spontaneously speak in unknown language without having ever heard glossolalia. These speech samples were then rated by glossolalists. The two types of glossolalia were not distinguished from each other. In fact, the "contrived" glossolalia received better ratings as "good glossolalia" than the actual glossolalia.

Werner Cohn, at the University of British Columbia, took naive students to Pentecostal churches to hear glossolalia and then asked the students to speak in glossolalia in the laboratory. They were able to successfully do so. Their recordings were then played to glossolalists who described the glossolalia as beautiful examples.

In sum, the structural linguistic data suggest that glossolalia has specific linguistic structure based on the language tongue of the speaker, that the linguistic organization is limited, and that the capacity to speak in this type of semi-organized language can be replicated under experimental conditions. Thus, glossolalia does not appear to be a "strange language," but rather the aborted formation of familiar language.
I think I'm beginning to get the picture here. Are you an actual member of this organization of about 1500 so-called scientists?
I would be really interested to know what the majority denominational affiliation is of this group?
This report is nothing more than a sham
 
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StanJ

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I thought I'd check the commentaries to see if any agreed with your interpretation of "new tongues" in Mark 16:17.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Shall speak with new tongues - Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:4-11. It existed, also, in other places. See 1 Corinthians 12:10.

Adam Clarke Commentary
Speak with new tongues - This was most literally fulfilled on the day of pentecost, Acts 2:4-19.

E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
new = different in character. Greek. kainos, not neos. See notes on Matthew 9:17; Matthew 26:28, Matthew 26:29,

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
they shall speak with new tongues: or languages, not such as were new made, and had never been heard and known before; but foreign languages, such as they had never learned, or were able to speak, or understood before; and this not only did the apostles on the day of pentecost, but even common believers at other times, Acts 2:4 Acts 10:45.

Geneva Study Bible
(e) Strange tongues, ones which they did not know before.

Matthew Henry Commentary
They shall speak with new tongues, which they had never learned, or been acquainted with;

Mayers NT Commentary
And such is the speaking in new languages mentioned in the passage before us, in such languages, that is, as they could not previously speak, which were new and strange to the speakers.

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Speak with new tongues — Tongues by them not hitherto possessed.

I couldn't find a single commentary that agreed with your interpretation. I'm afraid it looks like you're on your own with that one as well.
This wasn't my interpretation of new tongue it comes straight from Mounce.
You give 8 examples and figure that's a wrap, even though Clarke, Bullinger, Geneva, and Henry don't say what you assert?
I hate to break it to you, but not all commentaries are accurate one way or the other. You will pick out what you want to see and ignore the rest.
As God inspired his written word he would have said foreign languages and not new tongues if you really meant foreign languages.
καινός (kainos) = new as in unheard of, unusual, new in species, character or mode. Clearly, a new tongue is a tongue that never existed before and does not mean only knew to the person using it but new as a tongue.
 
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swordsman1

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Most of your responses are simply dogged insistances that you are right despite all the evidence to the contrary. As you clearly seem to be wearing blinkers, there is little point debating those points any further.


What? How is this glossolalia?:

Acts 9:18 "And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;"


So you think Acts 8 is only dealing with Samaritans? That's quite an assumption. Regardless, v17 & 18 show that. Of course if you don't plainly accept tongues as what they are, then you probably wouldn't be able to see when it happened. Read the beginning of v18 carefully.

Where in Acts 8 does it mention Gentiles?

v17-18 doesn't mention tongues. It doesn't say what Simon saw. But tongues is something you hear, not see. Looks like you are once again reading your own presuppositions into the text.


They were Disciples of Jesus baptized by John. Paul didn't ask them who they believed in he asked them when they believe that they receive the Holy Spirit. Here's a good indication of how you presume and assume instead of presenting facts.

It doesn't say they were disciples of Jesus. It just says they were 'disciples'. After Paul interrogates them he finds out they are not Christians, but disciples of John the Baptist. Only after Paul told them about Jesus in v4 do they believe, receive the Holy Spirit and become disciples of Christ.
 
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swordsman1

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This wasn't my interpretation of new tongue it comes straight from Mounce.

You clearly didn't read Mounce's definition very thoroughly:

Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament:

καινός (kainos)
Strong: G2537
GK: G2785
new, recently made, Mt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; new in species, character, or mode, Mt. 26:28, 29; Mk. 14:24, 25; Lk. 22:20; Jn. 13:34; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:15; 4:24; 1 Jn. 2:7; Rev. 3:12; novel, strange, Mk. 1:27; Acts 17:19; new to the possessor, Mk. 16:17; unheard of, unusual, Mk. 1:27; Acts 17:19; met. renovated, better, of higher excellence, 2 Cor. 5:17; Rev. 5:9
 
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StanJ

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Most of your responses are simply dogged insistances that you are right despite all the evidence to the contrary. As you clearly seem to be wearing blinkers, there is little point debating those points any further.
There has been no evidence to the contrary, just the misrepresentation of facts. If you want to walk away from this, that of course is your prerogative.
What? How is this glossolalia?:
Acts 9:18 "And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;"
Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is shown by the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
Where in Acts 8 does it mention Gentiles?
Are you assuming there were no Gentiles in Samaria?
v17-18 doesn't mention tongues. It doesn't say what Simon saw. But tongues is something you hear, not see. Looks like you are once again reading your own presuppositions into the text.
How else could Simon see that they actually received the Holy Spirit if he didn't see them speaking in tongues? Now if Simon was blind then maybe Luke would have said heard, but clearly something happened to indicate the same and that they had received the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't say they were disciples of Jesus. It just says they were 'disciples'. After Paul interrogates them he finds out they are not Christians, but disciples of John the Baptist. Only after Paul told them about Jesus in v4 do they believe, receive the Holy Spirit and become disciples of Christ.
Wrong. Paul said into what were you baptized when you believed. John's baptism was just as Paul said, to believe in Jesus. They were Disciples of Jesus whom they believed in. They then received the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues and prophesy. That is the main point here but of course you're more than willing to deflect and strive about all these words in order to obscure what was really going on.
 
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